Autistics preferring the company of other autistics
Magna
Citizen
I've noticed in my time perusing autism related forums that occasionally an autistic person who says they prefer interacting with other autistics over NTs is admonished and alluded to being a bigot. Why is that?
Is a woman who prefers having friendships with other women rather than with men a misandrist?
Is a man who prefers to have friendships with other men rather than with women a misogynist?
Is someone who prefers to communicate with people of their own culture a xenophobe?
Is a deaf person who prefers having friendships with other deaf people rather than with hearing people a bigot?
What about musicians or artists that prefer to be in the company of other musicians or artists rather than others?
Why is it that if an autistic person says they prefer friendships with other autistics rather than NTs they're considered a bigot by some?
Comments
I think the deaf example is interesting, because I've never really seen anyone challenge a deaf person saying they don't like being around hearing people (which I actually have seen said before), but autistic people get challenged by NTs and other autistic people if they say they don't like being around NTs.
Maybe it's because we don't have a physical disability and some of us present so "normally", especially online, that people think we're just being stuck up if we say that. Maybe some people also don't see the issue with constant masking and/or don't have an issue with it themselves, so they expect other people to be able to handle masking around NTs all the time. You certainly can't constantly be surrounded by them and have positive relationships without some form of masking.
Sometimes people can't even say they have had issues being harassed and taken advantage of by NTs, so that's why they don't like being around them, or they get people jumping at their throats about being closeminded to NTs and saying it's their fault they got hurt and are uncomfortable.
Doesn’t quite make sense to me either: I can certainly see the validity of the notion that social interaction with folks who are different from yourself in terms of race, culture, religion, gender, neurology etc can help broaden ones outlook on life... but I don’t think it’s really deniable that it is more comfortable to interact with folks who have significant levels of similarity in outlook (or at least overlapping elements of life experience): decrying someone for simply and plainly admitting that seems rather silly to me.
“I, being X, find it easier to get on with X than Y “ is a very different statement to “My strongly identified group, the X, are all naturally and automatically morally superior to all Y “ ... a charge of bigotry fits the second, but not the first as far as I perceive it.
In my entire life I met one peer age autistic person who I have not seen in 25 years.There are a couple younger people in the family,my father's great grandchildren who are autistic.I don't know IRL any autistic people,at a doctor's office I occassionally see a severely less verbal autistic person.
I have spent over a decade on autism forums/groups and I have rarely seen someone admonished for preferring the company of other autistic people, I have also been to many autism meetups, similar experience.
What I have seen is some bigotory or suspicion towards either by individuals in the other group (both in person and online). Or generalising their own group and/or the other. This is a different thing to above.
I have also become aware just how varied the world is, which calls into question what NT means when there are many other neuotypes, but even as a relative marker it is best not to assume.
I have been in the presence of separatists and supremacists, even those proposing setting up communes, which I don't think is a realistic or good approach to advocacy. If they want to try it good luck to them, I wouldn't want to be a part of it, and I think I would not enjoy the social dynamic.
I have seen cliques exist in both autistic and non-autitistic communities and i suppose that is natural.
The most important thing I have learnt is is ASD is not the whole personality it is part of a person and set of traits with some variability. Yes the experience gives a lot in common but there is also plenty things that wouldn't be in common. So clashes in personality are going happen in any group.
There is a whole spectrum of personality across the community, including clinically significant. A lot of my previous assumptions about people on the spectrum such as inherent honestly have been challenged.
I have personally seen many advantages in being in a relationship with someone who is also on the spectrum. However if the compatibility is not there, then there will be issues. Also I think when I was younger, and without my knowledge of the variation on the spectrum, I would have less patient or understanding and vice versa.
I have experienced support and compassion from some individuals who are "NT" and experienced people on the spectrum who have been anything but compassionate, and vice versa. I have seen people abuse people goodwill and compassion. It depends there is really is no generalising from experience.
This worked very well for me and I'm actually someone who seeks variety of perspective, POV and experience, but it's just a personal preference.
That's how I see it too.
As long as people don't tell me who I should or shouldn't hang out with or don't try to impose their rules in my house or demand allegiance to their tribe from me, I don't care. Again, everybody has preferences.
Yeah, IRL it would be very difficult to completely avoid NTs while still having a relationship, job or friends. Unless you fully isolate yourself which would make it even more difficult to meet autistic people too.
I don't remember accusations of bigotry though, but I don't read everything. I definitely remember meet-up groups and people who expressed a preference for dating on the spectrum.
I have not seen a lot of places to meet autistic people,or maybe I have not done a good job at looking.Back when I lived in Vermont maybe 2013 or something I was given a phone# for autism support group.I called to ask about meeting times and never got a call back.I suspect it was run by a parent of a autistic child and they didn't want to deal with HFA's or aspies or otherwise people they don't view as legit autistic from there point of view.
Since I have been where I'm living now since 16' I have never seen a autistic support or meet-up group advertised at any time.I admit I have not proactively searched but you'd expect to see something.There is a mental heath clinic called the Brien center which does mostly substance abuse but you'd think they'd have an ASD group too?
I think a lot of major cities have them, some were even organised on WP and other people mentioned being part of one or even running one.
There was also a WP user called I think vickygleitz who organised something like a small autistic retreat, but I haven't seen her in a while.
I will make of today doing a google search "autism support or meet group in North Berkshire county" I will do that at some point today.
I prefer hanging out with people I want to hang out with.
Whether the person is autistic or not is irrelevant.
Whatever happened to Vicky?
In a nutshell
I don't know, but I liked her too.
I have ADD so I am not exactly an NT though not autistic. A great number of my friends are ADD or ADHD and a few are ASD including my lover so yes, there is something comfortable about like being with like to a certain degree. I never though compartmentalize people according to a particular preference or category, I either let them into my heart or not depending on whether they are good, kind people or not. I have friends of all ethnicities and religions, sexual orientations, political affiliations and neuro-diversities. It is perfectly legitimate to prefer to be with people you are comfortable with, have a common interest or passion with and you can control your own private environment if you wish to, but inevitably the world will throw you together with others who are different, be it at school, university, colleagues at the workplace, those who give us their best medical and psychological care, on forums and social media. I have sometimes clicked with the most unlikely people and I am so grateful that I am able to not pre-judge people by any particular scale of measure, I would have missed out on having so many excellent people in my life and I learn so much more when I am open minded and exposed to different points of view and perspectives I believe. I also have never experienced someone being labeled negatively for stating a preference to be with autistic people, though my internet activity is restricted to a couple of forums and my Facebook activity is strictly filtered to receive only positive posts that promote unity and acceptance so I wouldn't receive anything negative anyway.
So I did the search as promised and found an ABA for children but no adult peer support or meet ups.
I've organised successful ASD meets large an small and coordinated them with others, both informal sitdown, and activity such as a museum visit or board/card games. It is easier in a city for sure. It is a very valuable experience, and helped me feel a part of the community. The social dynamic online is different to in person.
I'm fairly asocial though, I tend to be social in a controlled way on my terms with set context and people I'm conformable with. There is no set formula determining for that only experience with said person.
I personally think the issue with preferring to socialise with those on spectrum is how to ensure this without gate-keeping or some kind of proof (nearly all diagnosis is modelling)? Simply to express that you prefer it, there is no issue if done civilly.
I suggest those that truly believe they would prefer it to try meeting a wide range of people on the spectrum, to see the degree to which their perception is correct or not.
Then if so, then it is down to them not others to facilitate it.
I look at this two ways: My real life friendships, and my online friendships.
1) I can't say that I prefer spending time with Autistic people in real life, because I don't know any Autistic people in real life, other than my daughter who is HFA. That's likely not a fair comparison because we also have the mother / daughter bond which I hope would exist even if she wasn't HFA. We get on extremely well like best friends or sisters, and understand each other's unique way of thinking in regard to sensory and social issues, routines and repetition, etc. It's very comfortable for me to be with her because I never have to mask or explain my Autism.
I don't know other Autistic people. I've never joined a meetup or gone to any type of group Autism service, so I can't say that I prefer being with Autistic people. I have no frame of reference. To be honest, I prefer time to myself most of all, and would rather be alone or at home than with any person, whether Autistic or not.
Of course there are wonderful NT people in the world. I don't think that was the question. The question is which group I prefer to be around. Again, I can't answer because I don't know any Autistic people except my daughter. I've never dated a totally NT person. They've all been ND in one way or another, but not Autistic.
I don't think I would be comfortable with someone totally NT, but that's just conjecture. I like oddballs, and prefer a very quiet life.
2) Online -- In contrast to real life where I don't know any Autistic people, all of my online friends are on the spectrum. I don't participate in forums or social media with anyone other than Autistics. I have many strong friendships online because we seem to be on the same wavelength, and understand one another instinctually.
Again, I can't say that "I prefer Autistic friends online", because I have no method of comparison. I don't really interact with anyone non-autistic because those people tend not to join the forums that I use.
To answer your original question @Magna, no I don't think the word bigotry would be applicable. People have the freedom to spend time with whomever makes them the most comfortable. Finding a commonality with people of any particular group doesn't make a person bigoted.
Bigotry would suggest that the Autistic person feels superior to other neurotypes, or that they experience prejudice against others based on their neurotype, prior to meeting or getting to know them. That's not applicable to what you described, at all.
Thanks for all of the responses.
Certainly is takes all kinds of people to make the world go 'round. Autistics will always encounter NTs in their lives including many that will help them as Teach pointed out (professionals, etc). In that respect, autistics need NTs. NTs also need autistics. To clarify, I wasn't saying that I'd like to isolate myself from all NTs in the world if that was the impression I gave in my OP. I'm married to an NT. Also, I agree that just because a person is autistic doesn't mean they'll "click" with every other autistic. I don't have a goal of befriending all autistics.
I agree that anyone who thinks a group that they belong to regardless of what that might be is superior to others would be a bigot by definition. I don't think autistics are superior to NTs. Also, I agree a person would sadly limit themselves if they were prejudicial in choosing friends by actively excluding someone from friendship based on the person's neurology, race, creed, sex, gender, religion, political ideology (worth contemplating...) or neurology.
I actively seek to increase my friendships and acquaintanceships with other autistic people because in my experience I enjoy the company of autistic people in general more than non-autistic people. I relate to them better and I'm markedly more at ease around them. In common vernacular of the day, "they're my peeps".
As a matter of fact, I'm getting ready to log into a zoom to attend a group chat with other autistics in a few minutes. I'm looking forward to it!
I hope you enjoyed your Zoom!
I think it's great that you reach out to be part of many diverse autistic communities, as an advocate for yourself as well as your child. It's incredible how many autistic peers you've found where you live!
^ Thank you. The Zoom was good. I'm doing what I can to reach out to more autistic peers in my area. The Autism Society in my state has a firebrand of a person employed there. She's a young autistic woman whose special interest is autism and disability rights and she's very active at our state's legislative level with helping to form policy. They're working on a bill right now for example that would require any function requiring a license and having more than 1,000 attendees to have sensory friendly accommodations available for those who need them in order to attend. I'm not sure the specifics of what that would actually entail yet, but the goal is to encourage communities to be more accessible to people that may not have obvious disabilities but that may have disabilities that limit them nonetheless.
Nice! What a wonderful represenatitive she seems to be!
I'm trying to picture which events could be modified? Sporting events? Rock concerts? How?
I suppose she's talking about conventions or business gatherings? Large schools, for sure.
It's hard to picture anything ever having 1,000 attendees again. The mind boggles!
I'm glad your Zoom went well and you've made even more contacts with the autistic community!!
It would be a wonderful idea to start a database here for such events and gatherings Magna, you seem to be the one with the necessary resources. Good for you, you are helping a lot of people come together.
I had a Dr. Appointment this morning and she told me of "autism-connections" a local group,so I emailed them to see if there is a autism meet up in the area.
That's really good news Statest! I assume they will be virtual meetings during Covid.
I'm not a Zoom meeting pro, but from the various Zoom meetings I've attended, I've observed the following:
For those reasons none of the Zoom meetings I've attended would be designed for international participation (ie potentially large numbers of attendees).
I am surprised that the various autism-centered forums or members of said forums haven't yet coordinated Zoom meetings. Zoom has a free option, but that's limited to a total meeting time of 30 or 40 minutes. There's a paid option for around $150 USD annually that removes the time limit and allows for hundreds of attendees.
Perhaps Zoom meetings to my knowledge haven't been promoted through autism forums because of our desires for anonymity from each other?
My intention was more geared for members to find out about local groups and activities, meet others in their own communities rather than meet with people they have met on forums. I understand the desire for anonymity on forums. Hopefully people will be able to meet physically in the future but I have a feeling it will be a very long way off.
^ I agree, Teach. I think Covid has permanently altered human social behavior across the entire planet in a negative way or certainly for our generation. I see no positive "silver lining" in this case unlike with most unfortunate events. I still hope that this was not created by and unleashed by humans because if it was, it would be the single most egregious act committed in human history based on its worldwide impact and certainly unforgivable for those who may have perpetrated it. But that's a topic for another thread I suppose.
I took part in some large, international Zoom events for a literature symposium. The attendees were able to comment on the side of the screen and ask questions, etc., but they weren't shown until the end when everyone was able to turn their camera on. I also do Zoom for my OT, Psychologist, and Neuropsychiatrist but those are all one-on-one.
I admire your Zoom participation with Autistic groups. I benefit considerably from Autism forums and online friendships, but I wouldn't be comfortable using Zoom or video for social reasons. It takes me a long time to process what people say or write, and quite a while to decide what or how I'd like to respond. It's much easier for me to process written words than spoken. I'm scopophobic and generally mute. I think the real-time aspect of Zoom would be too much for me.
I think it's great that you're so confident to meet many new people, and to involve your family in your groups.
^Thanks, Is. I went about 18 years with literally zero friends (other than my wife) and it's only been starting with the last few of having friends online. Time is flying by and that spurs my desire to meet and befriend other autistic people both online and in person.
I started that in-person face to face group of autistic adults in my area and we met one time in February of 2020 just before Covid hit and we've never met again although we've emailed each other a few times to keep in touch. That face to face meeting was great. We were all very comfortable with each other which doesn't happen in NT dominant groups of strangers. I've scheduled a Zoom with them a week from today and I'm looking forward to it.
I also didn't have true reciprocal friends until mid twenties (and didn't really understand what it meant)
Two communities helped me: The social anxiety community and the ASD community.
I think it helped me feel more conformable about making friends (should I want to) and learning social skills. Having said that there was the odd member who abused the community/personal trust or were selfish but that happens in all communities.
It also convinced me I had some control over my social interactions, and I don't have to do everything on other people's terms. I learnt to and enjoy reciprocating better but chose to interact with people and settings that were beneficial to my social limits and theirs.
I am in a different stage in my life what I wanted and need then is different from now but it did help with relationships in general, and it is very important to me and those that I met.
Support and social are different but strongly connected you can't really have one with the other and that is the appeal with community relation, but outside perspective have also been invaluable to me and it is obvious now that advocacy cannot exist in bubble.
Over my life span so far, I have found myself always interested in people who were different from me. Not necessarily as friends, and not in a large group. It has given me insights into myself and the world. It has provided me with so much data.
My various professions, teaching, hospice nursing, case management for people with developmental disabilities, required a professional countenance and accepting people as they are and where they are in their own life path. I found I could accept and learn from a wide range of people, even people that I would have "disliked" in some manner previous to this experience.
My life would be greatly diminished without these people, whether they were patients, students, families, people with impairments.
In terms of actual reciprocal friendships, the only one I have had is my current husband, and I am blessed for that. He is NT, but loves me the way I am and thinks my quirks make me interesting. But believe me, I made many, many mistakes before I met him.
There are people in life with whom I was close to, but in a specific setting. These people faded away when the setting was removed. I now see this as part of life process and not necessarily a reflection on their friendship while we were together.
So for me, I do not like groups of people, but I do appreciate meeting and interacting with people who are different from me. Just my opinion.