Conflicts can leave their mark for generations, inter/trans generational trauma is quite common here also and will continue into the future in the Northern regions, as the conflicts are fresh in living memory.
Gabor Mate has done a lot of work on this as a key part of addiction recovery.
Being raised by an emotionally unstable parent who randomly violently freaks out at you and shows BPD-like behaviors does not help learning the concept of safety, self and boundaries.
@magpie said:
Being raised by an emotionally unstable parent who randomly violently freaks out at you and shows BPD-like behaviors does not help learning the concept of safety, self and boundaries.
Oh dear, no it doesn't. I estimate it damages to destroys all 3 and leaves a child to grow into adulthood with no concept of them.
@magpie said:
Being raised by an emotionally unstable parent who randomly violently freaks out at you and shows BPD-like behaviors does not help learning the concept of safety, self and boundaries.
Oh dear, no it doesn't. I estimate it damages to destroys all 3 and leaves a child to grow into adulthood with no concept of them.
That's how I understand what was wrong with my mother's family.
No villain in this story but the burden is carried from parents, to children, to their children... I would like not to give it to my children now that I know what's the matter.
@magpie I see it all around me too, in my own family back to my great grandparents (though probably it goes back a good few hundred years) and so many other families too, there just wasn't an awareness of the mind body connection until recently, some done the best they could in many ways, given the knowledge and support available.
But for the good fortune to be born in this era, I could have been in their shoes, dealing with much more serious concerns.
Once I understood the basics of epi-genetics that changed my perspective, so many things made sense to me. That key events in my parents life and later in my life had likely triggered areas that I was predisposed to.
You seem like a consistently good mom Magpie, I'm sure you are human too and imperfect, but you give it your best shot and that is admirable.
I just read an article about survivors of Soviet rapes in Poland... you couldn't say bad things about Soviets in post-war Poland, so these stories went often never told, deeply hidden - not only because of the trauma and shame but also because it was politically incorrect.
The article left me wondering, how much censorship was applied to my own family's history. How many half-truths hid something never told. Was there rape? Prostitution to survive? Or just gore so horrible that it overloaded ability to process?
My mother's family are masters of denial. I broke away from the denial with my love to science and logic and it cost me mental health.
If my grandmother lived in denial about something that happened to her, I would probably never learn what it was. I can only speculate based on the severity of issues, that there probably was more than she ever told.
The article invoked "the third generation rule". I am the third generation - the one ready to process the horriblities of traumatic history.
I feel like I'll never know the truth but my guesses are lining up to form a story... a story maybe largely false when it comes to facts but calling to be told to name the feelings.
It's her last year in high school when the war comes, her home gets burned down in the first weeks. She's pretty, from a respected but not really wealthy family, the oldest of the four siblings. They're left with what they could have grabbed when running from the air strike.
They move to a distant relative, being allowed to stay at the exchange of helping with his business. Her father dies the first winter. She commits to working and studying to support the devastated family.
Now the guesses come: The man who gave them shelter was far from saint. He couldn't ignore a pretty 18yo under his roof. He came when she was sweeping glass shards in the destroyed store. Subtly blackmailed her.
She had a mother and younger siblings to support. She feared losing shelter again. She feared in general - that awful war was full of people dying from both violence and poverty. She had to support her nearest and dearest no matter what...
It was awful. She thought it was not really happening, every time he lowered his pants and she, scared, agreed to his will - she felt she was not really there, it didn't really happen... she cried when no one could see. Of course she told no one, she had them to protect, to ensure their shelter. She felt like she didn't deserve to live, she didn't deserve to eat, she buried herself in work and study and pretended that, as much as it was possible at all during that war, her life was good and fulfilling. For five long years.
She married as soon as the war is over, to a much older man she barely knew. He was a good man but not great with emotions and stuff. She was hoping to undo all that happened, be a perfect wife, perfect mother, loving and caring. She was a perfect wife and perfect mother! No, she was horrible, not deserving to live, standing at an open window and shouting she's giong to jump out while her chldren listened... no, she was a good mother! Look, come, tell me I'm loving, tell me I'm good, show me all the respect for my sacrifice!
The memoriees got clouded. No, it didn't really happen. The war was horrible, yes, the war was horrible, everyone knows it, so that's it, the war was horrible, she remembers seeing a man with his legs torn off by a bomb, she remembers pain in her legs when she had to walk in snow in too small and too light shoes. Everyone knows the war was horrible. That's all she remembers. And this something, clouded and swollen in her soul, no, it doesn't exist, she's not crazy, she's good and loving, she deserves all the respect!
It's some framework of facts filled with pure guesses. The reallity might have been completely different. It just... fits the feelings best.
@Amity said:
Wow Magpie, thank you, that is quite a clever way of framing it.
And chilling.
I've met people with a similar family history and the burden passes to the next generations. Terrible deeds and events are never "contained" and have a way of lingering - people are pressured to move on, but the past often reverberates through the generations, even if individuals can be mostly oblivious how long ago was the damage inflicted and started the cycle. Even more so if such events are hidden or censored - it can happen at a national level too.
@Amity said:
Wow Magpie, thank you, that is quite a clever way of framing it.
And chilling.
I've met people with a similar family history and the burden passes to the next generations. Terrible deeds and events are never "contained" and have a way of lingering - people are pressured to move on, but the past often reverberates through the generations, even if individuals can be mostly oblivious how long ago was the damage inflicted and started the cycle. Even more so if such events are hidden or censored - it can happen at a national level too.
I feel there is a past of trauma that my nation has never worked through - and I put it in this story. I think my nation is still in denial when it comes to being betrayed and abused by your own kind.
Not by some Nazi Germans, not by some Soviet Russians but by your own family and friends that turned out to be opportunistic predators when the war acted as a great enabler.
We maintain myths of heroes and we wear our Righteous Among the Nations titles with pride and we get extremely touchy when someone tries to adress the less-than-perfect cards of the story. It's true for the war, it's true for post-war times, it's true here and now. We can't adress these stories because the fear of external enemies is still too strong, we need to support "our kind" no matter what and the stories of abuse never get told.
It's just now happening in the Catholic church in Poland. Evidence of systematic hiding of abuse surfaces and the reactions are completely illogical - instead of cleaning and repairing as much as possible, there is siege mentality of "protecting the memory of John Paul II" by plainly denying that anything bad could have happened on his watch, and it it happened, no one knew, and if someone knew, it was the victim's fault.
While such stories and gossip were absolutely used by Communist state to undermine the church, the church seems not to see that the war is over and it's time to clean up after it.
Thank you for the poem, it captures the idea we're discussing very well and can be also scaled down to a personal level: we all have to take out the trash figuratively speaking, once in a while. Someone once used the metaphor that not dealing with our own baggage is like going through life dragging around a large bag full of shit - the stench kills you, but you still refuse to let go. Crass, but accurate.
I understand what you're saying about your own nation and recognise it both from my country of origin (even if the form in which it occurs is different) and discussions with friends from other places. Many of my Eastern European friends told me that once the Soviet Union's influence was established but they physically left, the next step was seeing their own countrymen taking advantage of the situation and ruthlessly suppressing, oppressing and destroying those who stood in their way and running the country into the ground. They often quote as the main reason for leaving and refusing to return the fact that their countries still don't take their share of responsibility for these events and hide behind the otherwise correct fact of being sacrificed at the end of the war. Many of those who caused great harm amassed fortunes and kept taking advantage of the situation and their own people after the Wall fell, during a transition that was both full of great difficulties but also... opportunities.
In a strange and I'd say unhealthy way, denying the worst aspects of the past seems to be the conventional way of "moving on", both for individuals and sometimes whole nations. Even if it always ends catching up with us or our children.
It is my understanding that the protection and preservation of The Church (not just Catholic, but any denomination that turned the church into an institution) are supposed to be above everything else, even the truth. And people are often reluctant, to say the least, to admit that strong historical figures or great artists made mistakes and had most of the weaknesses inherent to the human condition. They probably think this preserves their integrity, while an old iconoclast like me thinks it diminishes it through lies.
I am with you magpie, I embrace you, there is so much truth and wisdom in your discernments. I also have CPTSD, and I am so very happy to be among good friends.
@Bender said:
Thank you for the poem, it captures the idea we're discussing very well and can be also scaled down to a personal level: we all have to take out the trash figuratively speaking, once in a while. Someone once used the metaphor that not dealing with our own baggage is like going through life dragging around a large bag full of shit - the stench kills you, but you still refuse to let go. Crass, but accurate.
I understand what you're saying about your own nation and recognise it both from my country of origin (even if the form in which it occurs is different) and discussions with friends from other places. Many of my Eastern European friends told me that once the Soviet Union's influence was established but they physically left, the next step was seeing their own countrymen taking advantage of the situation and ruthlessly suppressing, oppressing and destroying those who stood in their way and running the country into the ground. They often quote as the main reason for leaving and refusing to return the fact that their countries still don't take their share of responsibility for these events and hide behind the otherwise correct fact of being sacrificed at the end of the war. Many of those who caused great harm amassed fortunes and kept taking advantage of the situation and their own people after the Wall fell, during a transition that was both full of great difficulties but also... opportunities.
Thinking of it, I have a feeling that my whole nation has collective symptoms of BPD, going through idealisation and devaluation cycles, in vain trying to fill some painful void with heroic myths and self-hatred... it's so hard to see the reality the way it is.
I really appreciate the Germans' courage to face their difficult past. I wish we had it.
In a strange and I'd say unhealthy way, denying the worst aspects of the past seems to be the conventional way of "moving on", both for individuals and sometimes whole nations. Even if it always ends catching up with us or our children.
It is my understanding that the protection and preservation of The Church (not just Catholic, but any denomination that turned the church into an institution) are supposed to be above everything else, even the truth. And people are often reluctant, to say the least, to admit that strong historical figures or great artists made mistakes and had most of the weaknesses inherent to the human condition. They probably think this preserves their integrity, while an old iconoclast like me thinks it diminishes it through lies.
I don't identify as an inconoclast, I do appreciate sacred art of many cultures and inherent value of spirituality - but yes, not admitting that even the most important historical figures were merely humans with all their limitations is an awful and common disease.
The way I feel it, admitting humanity of a saint makes them real, relatable and carrying the message much better.
In this particular case, the available evidence indicates rather enormous corruption of Vatican (which is an old news, to say the least, Francis is trying to do at least something about it but the process is sloooow) than personal fault of JPII - but, nevertheless, you're not allowed to touch this topic or you're the enemy of the church, nation and any morality there is!
Which, obviously, backfires like hell.
I don't identify as an inconoclast, I do appreciate sacred art of many cultures and inherent value of spirituality - but yes, not admitting that even the most important historical figures were merely humans with all their limitations is an awful and common disease.
Well, I myself prefer seeing The Truth, rather than embracing ideas that are designed for emotional comfort, at the expense of actuality.
I took Morpheus's "red pill", when I was 22, and prefer to see the dystopia we live in.
In The Matrix, the main character Neo is offered the choice between a red pill and a blue pill by rebel leader Morpheus. The red pill represents an uncertain future—it would free him from the enslaving control of the machine-generated dream world and allow him to escape into the real world, but living the "truth of reality" is harsher and more difficult. On the other hand, the blue pill represents a beautiful prison—it would lead him back to ignorance, living in confined comfort without want or fear within the simulated reality of the Matrix. As described by Morpheus: "You take the blue pill...the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill...you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes." Neo chooses the red pill and joins the rebellion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_pill_and_blue_pill
I don't identify as an inconoclast, I do appreciate sacred art of many cultures and inherent value of spirituality - but yes, not admitting that even the most important historical figures were merely humans with all their limitations is an awful and common disease.
I know the term is mostly associated with a desire to destroy , but as far as I'm concerned, an iconoclast doesn't necessarily want to taint or destroy such values, but asks for the taboo to be destroyed, allowing things to be examined and even criticised when needed.
The way I feel it, admitting humanity of a saint makes them real, relatable and carrying the message much better.
I don't identify as an inconoclast, I do appreciate sacred art of many cultures and inherent value of spirituality - but yes, not admitting that even the most important historical figures were merely humans with all their limitations is an awful and common disease.
I know the term is mostly associated with a desire to destroy , but as far as I'm concerned, an iconoclast doesn't necessarily want to taint or destroy such values, but asks for the taboo to be destroyed, allowing things to be examined and even criticised when needed.
If we define iconoclasm that way, I'm one, too :D
It's not about tearing down icons - unless I see a trunk or a tusk lurking from behind them. But it's not about the icons, it's about the elephant.
I don't identify as an inconoclast, I do appreciate sacred art of many cultures and inherent value of spirituality - but yes, not admitting that even the most important historical figures were merely humans with all their limitations is an awful and common disease.
I know the term is mostly associated with a desire to destroy , but as far as I'm concerned, an iconoclast doesn't necessarily want to taint or destroy such values, but asks for the taboo to be destroyed, allowing things to be examined and even criticised when needed.
If we define iconoclasm that way, I'm one, too :D
It's not about tearing down icons - unless I see a trunk or a tusk lurking from behind them. But it's not about the icons, it's about the elephant.
I can't seem to recover from my sociopathic ex husband renewing contact after many many years and cursing me on the phone. I just can't gather myself together. I don't go out unless I absolutely have to and I am a total recluse. I close the blinds and isolate. It's as if all my past childhood trauma has awakened simultaneously with that of my marriage and the impossible every day painful burdens that I have to endure, things I can't even talk about. I want my optimistic self back. I don't even want to talk to my therapist who is treating my CPTSD. I was really making progress then 2 events happened and it all came crashing down. I know the sunshine is there behind the darkness but each time I relapse it is so much harder to gather myself together. I think all the isolating and stress from Corona during the last year hasn't helped either. I will see my therapist because I want to get well but I just can't get myself into motion. I feel really bad posting something so negative but I need to put it in words and acknowledge how I feel because I have always been forced to suppress my feelings. Thank you for being here.
I can't seem to recover from my sociopathic ex husband renewing contact after many many years and cursing me on the phone. I just can't gather myself together. I don't go out unless I absolutely have to and I am a total recluse. I close the blinds and isolate. It's as if all my past childhood trauma has awakened simultaneously with that of my marriage and the impossible every day painful burdens that I have to endure, things I can't even talk about. I want my optimistic self back. I don't even want to talk to my therapist who is treating my CPTSD. I was really making progress then 2 events happened and it all came crashing down. I know the sunshine is there behind the darkness but each time I relapse it is so much harder to gather myself together. I think all the isolating and stress from Corona during the last year hasn't helped either. I will see my therapist because I want to get well but I just can't get myself into motion. I feel really bad posting something so negative but I need to put it in words and acknowledge how I feel because I have always been forced to suppress my feelings. Thank you for being here.
Don't beat yourself up over being "negative", this is the place to reach out when you struggle.
I recognise what you describe only too well. I think that right after a shock, isolating yourself is actually a healthy reaction meant to protect you: it minimises outside stimulants or aggressors and gives you time to start processing what happened. I usually go into shutdown, but even my allistic wife needs to take some time when something significant happens before she can talk about it or reach out.
The current situation makes things worse: not only we've been under a lot of stress, but it makes it easier to self-isolate for longer than it's healthy. I struggle with this too, particularly since right now there's no actual need for me to get out of the house or see others and it makes me apathetic and sluggish.
Taking some time is good, just watch out for the desire to curl in a ball and shut everything off or not wanting to get out of bed, it's the kind of red flag I use to recognise when I actually can't deal with things by myself and should reach out to someone.
It's a similar process to grieving and people experience it differently. It sounds like a good idea to try to get yourself to talk to your therapist and we're here for you, sending good wishes and spoons
I can't seem to recover from my sociopathic ex husband renewing contact after many many years and cursing me on the phone. I just can't gather myself together. I don't go out unless I absolutely have to and I am a total recluse. I close the blinds and isolate. It's as if all my past childhood trauma has awakened simultaneously with that of my marriage and the impossible every day painful burdens that I have to endure, things I can't even talk about. I want my optimistic self back. I don't even want to talk to my therapist who is treating my CPTSD. I was really making progress then 2 events happened and it all came crashing down. I know the sunshine is there behind the darkness but each time I relapse it is so much harder to gather myself together. I think all the isolating and stress from Corona during the last year hasn't helped either. I will see my therapist because I want to get well but I just can't get myself into motion. I feel really bad posting something so negative but I need to put it in words and acknowledge how I feel because I have always been forced to suppress my feelings. Thank you for being here.
Oh Teach, for what it is worth Im holding you close to my heart.
I dont know how I would cope in your shoes, it would be very triggering and would leave me feeling very very vulnerable.
The progress you have made is real and You got yourself to this point, you own that piece and no one can take that from you, no one, it is your lived reality.
The person you are now is not the person you were then, but your body remembers, the reactions are stored in your parasympathetic nervous system.
The fact that they are there is indeed a survival mechanism, your brain knows the reactions belong to a past life, your body doesnt though.
To have contact from an evil person from the past, the fresh abuse laying atop of the old abuse would be a mindmuck.
You are doing really well Teach, a mantra that works for me when my body reacts to triggers is "that was then and this is now" said lovingly to the part of me that is reacting protectively based on past experiences.
I can't seem to recover from my sociopathic ex husband renewing contact after many many years and cursing me on the phone. I just can't gather myself together. I don't go out unless I absolutely have to and I am a total recluse. I close the blinds and isolate. It's as if all my past childhood trauma has awakened simultaneously with that of my marriage and the impossible every day painful burdens that I have to endure, things I can't even talk about. I want my optimistic self back. I don't even want to talk to my therapist who is treating my CPTSD. I was really making progress then 2 events happened and it all came crashing down. I know the sunshine is there behind the darkness but each time I relapse it is so much harder to gather myself together. I think all the isolating and stress from Corona during the last year hasn't helped either. I will see my therapist because I want to get well but I just can't get myself into motion. I feel really bad posting something so negative but I need to put it in words and acknowledge how I feel because I have always been forced to suppress my feelings. Thank you for being here.
Oh Teach, for what it is worth Im holding you close to my heart.
I dont know how I would cope in your shoes, it would be very triggering and would leave me feeling very very vulnerable.
The progress you have made is real and You got yourself to this point, you own that piece and no one can take that from you, no one, it is your lived reality.
The person you are now is not the person you were then, but your body remembers, the reactions are stored in your parasympathetic nervous system.
The fact that they are there is indeed a survival mechanism, your brain knows the reactions belong to a past life, your body doesnt though.
To have contact from an evil person from the past, the fresh abuse laying atop of the old abuse would be a mindmuck.
You are doing really well Teach, a mantra that works for me when my body reacts to triggers is "that was then and this is now" said lovingly to the part of me that is reacting protectively based on past experiences.
We are indeed here
Yes that's what my therapist says, to soothe my wounded child, let her know that she is not alone, that my adult self is protecting her. I Was so angry with myself that I froze when he called and didn't say "wrong number" and block him.
I can't seem to recover from my sociopathic ex husband renewing contact after many many years and cursing me on the phone. I just can't gather myself together. I don't go out unless I absolutely have to and I am a total recluse. I close the blinds and isolate. It's as if all my past childhood trauma has awakened simultaneously with that of my marriage and the impossible every day painful burdens that I have to endure, things I can't even talk about. I want my optimistic self back. I don't even want to talk to my therapist who is treating my CPTSD. I was really making progress then 2 events happened and it all came crashing down. I know the sunshine is there behind the darkness but each time I relapse it is so much harder to gather myself together. I think all the isolating and stress from Corona during the last year hasn't helped either. I will see my therapist because I want to get well but I just can't get myself into motion. I feel really bad posting something so negative but I need to put it in words and acknowledge how I feel because I have always been forced to suppress my feelings. Thank you for being here.
Oh Teach, for what it is worth Im holding you close to my heart.
I dont know how I would cope in your shoes, it would be very triggering and would leave me feeling very very vulnerable.
The progress you have made is real and You got yourself to this point, you own that piece and no one can take that from you, no one, it is your lived reality.
The person you are now is not the person you were then, but your body remembers, the reactions are stored in your parasympathetic nervous system.
The fact that they are there is indeed a survival mechanism, your brain knows the reactions belong to a past life, your body doesnt though.
To have contact from an evil person from the past, the fresh abuse laying atop of the old abuse would be a mindmuck.
You are doing really well Teach, a mantra that works for me when my body reacts to triggers is "that was then and this is now" said lovingly to the part of me that is reacting protectively based on past experiences.
We are indeed here
Yes that's what my therapist says, to soothe my wounded child, let her know that she is not alone, that my adult self is protecting her. I Was so angry with myself that I froze when he called and didn't say "wrong number" and block him.
I'm not sure that I would find hindsight helpful in this situation. (Some personal questions that came to mind, I think its obvious, but just to be clear, I'm putting them here as reflective prompts, not as questions I am asking you in this public situation.)
I mean who does the angry reaction belong to, your authentic self? Your conditioned self? Where does the judgement come from? Where does the tendency for judgement come from? What role does it serve? Is it needed now?
Do any of these perceptions belong to your inner child? How would she view you in this situation? What would she say or do if she witnessed this as a bystander? What would she think of you as a person, your accomplishments, would she be impressed by your occupations, hobbies, voluntary work etc?
I feel that giving her a voice in how you perceive yourself, how you speak to yourself, could be a needed act of loving kindness, for her and for you.
I really appreciate your questions Amity, in real life I don't know anyone with CPTSD that would understand. I feel that I failed to protect myself, I have never really had anyone to protect me for long periods of time and I don't really know how to do it myself. I am learning in therapy that there is a part of me that can protect the child that was abused and neglected. The improvement at the moment is that I am angry with myself and not turning the pain inwards as depression as I have in the past. I have apologised to the 3 year old me and told her she is not alone, but the adult me is barely here to offer much support. My inner child was forced into silence and is barricaded in and she is reluctant to trust even my adult self. I do know that I admire my young child self, she was brave and compassionate and had the sense to leave home as soon as she could no matter what. How does she perceive me? As someone who has let her down and made all the wrong choices despite distancing myself from my family. I married someone evil because abuse feels like home and I let my inner child down. My therapist can't entice her to let me in, she doesn't trust me at all if that makes any sense. The judgement comes from conditioning I believe, everything was always my fault, I was always stupid and inadequate and retarded. If I voiced an opinion it was met with at best being ridiculed at worst gaslighted or hit. I was abused so much mentally you would need to try and behead me for me to notice something was wrong. I have tried my best and my motto is of course that my best will just have to be good enough.
@Teach51 This is speaking to my heart Teach and the response is longer than intended, but it would feel disrespectful to my authentic self to shorten it for the sake of convention.... I have the crappy childhood/early adulthood T shirt too, in many ways I understand and at the same time, I haven't walked in your shoes, there will always be circumstances or context I don't have personal experience with and as an Autistic, this can be a challenge.
I may have jumped ahead a bit with the questions, btw, there is a conditioned part of me that deeply wants to apologise for this and a recently (last 2yrs) nurtured simultaneous loving part of me says gently, 'you didn't know, you done no harm, the apology is a reflex from the past, that way of being isn't needed for now'.
Ohh congratulations on the anger part, for me that change made an immense difference! It was like my perception of the world changed and I found a fire in my soul, it lasted quite a few months from what I recall, before I needed help to move on from it.
A brave and compassionate child... sounds a lot like me as a kiddo, one thing that helped me with being accurate in the words my inner child would use, her perception, was having a photo of myself, perhaps aged 4, if I looked that photo in the eye and was able to speak authentically for her then the words had credence. She never says an unkind word, always compassionate, always knowing.
It seems like guilt is playing a large part in your response, where does that come from? Who does it belong to? Who placed it there? Is it linked to the judgement tendencies?
When I journeyed with my past selves, at age 4, 7, 13, 15, 17, 21, 25, 30 etc I realised that 21 and 25 were especially judgemental, even cruel, it was their voice I carried inside of me, polluting the brave and compassionate self talk from my younger self, with harshness and ridicule.
I think of the 4-7 year old me as the authentic me, yes bad things had happened by then, but when I focus on the purest parts of who I am, it is she that inspires me, she is the closest version I know to the real me.
I married an evil masshole too, it was what I knew also, the familiar, the known, despite being educated about and understanding the cycle of abuse, I ended up with someone who layered more hurt upon the hurt from childhood... Why? How could I let this happen?
(^See the judgement in that question, is it even a question? Feels more akin to a statement and not one I care for)
I was not as self aware then as I am now, the judgement has no place except to reinforce the feelings of inadequacy that abuse conditioned and reinforced, that judgement doesnt belong to the real me, it belongs to a hitchhiker on my journey. The real me, the brave and compassionate 4-7 yr old me knows this, how could I do better if I hadn't the tools in my toolkit? I done the best I could with the hand I was dealt.
I believe that I will come through this stronger, each day is a new beginning. My ex was so violent because I did not fall into his trap and talk to him, I guarded my boundaries and when he asked me why I refused his insane request I replied that I don't owe him an explanation in a very calm voice. I didn't do so badly in retrospect, that was why he exploded, he no longer has control. Amity I really value you opening up your heart, I hope you feel okay and had a good rest. You have made me feel so much better.
I believe that I will come through this stronger, each day is a new beginning. My ex was so violent because I did not fall into his trap and talk to him, I guarded my boundaries and when he asked me why I refused his insane request I replied that I don't owe him an explanation in a very calm voice. I didn't do so badly in retrospect, that was why he exploded, he no longer has control. Amity I really value you opening up your heart, I hope you feel okay and had a good rest. You have made me feel so much better.
You will , and I sense that wee Teach would have been proud of your bravery in the face of overwhelming reactions in your body. I think your duty of self care in this situation was excellent, you drew a line in the sand and held firm despite the chaos in your mind and body, that is no small feat to achieve. Oh yes Im good, Im aiming to respectfully listen to what my mind and body need after a few decades of ignoring these needs and pushing through all sorts of pain. When I needed help some very kind people were there for me and held a place for me to speak and be listened to, as best they could until I could get professional help. There can be tremendous value in the process of peer support... giving and receiving, both being beneficial.
Comments
Conflicts can leave their mark for generations, inter/trans generational trauma is quite common here also and will continue into the future in the Northern regions, as the conflicts are fresh in living memory.
Gabor Mate has done a lot of work on this as a key part of addiction recovery.
Being raised by an emotionally unstable parent who randomly violently freaks out at you and shows BPD-like behaviors does not help learning the concept of safety, self and boundaries.
Oh dear, no it doesn't. I estimate it damages to destroys all 3 and leaves a child to grow into adulthood with no concept of them.
That's how I understand what was wrong with my mother's family.
No villain in this story but the burden is carried from parents, to children, to their children... I would like not to give it to my children now that I know what's the matter.
@magpie I see it all around me too, in my own family back to my great grandparents (though probably it goes back a good few hundred years) and so many other families too, there just wasn't an awareness of the mind body connection until recently, some done the best they could in many ways, given the knowledge and support available.
But for the good fortune to be born in this era, I could have been in their shoes, dealing with much more serious concerns.
Once I understood the basics of epi-genetics that changed my perspective, so many things made sense to me. That key events in my parents life and later in my life had likely triggered areas that I was predisposed to.
You seem like a consistently good mom Magpie, I'm sure you are human too and imperfect, but you give it your best shot and that is admirable.
I just read an article about survivors of Soviet rapes in Poland... you couldn't say bad things about Soviets in post-war Poland, so these stories went often never told, deeply hidden - not only because of the trauma and shame but also because it was politically incorrect.
The article left me wondering, how much censorship was applied to my own family's history. How many half-truths hid something never told. Was there rape? Prostitution to survive? Or just gore so horrible that it overloaded ability to process?
My mother's family are masters of denial. I broke away from the denial with my love to science and logic and it cost me mental health.
If my grandmother lived in denial about something that happened to her, I would probably never learn what it was. I can only speculate based on the severity of issues, that there probably was more than she ever told.
The article invoked "the third generation rule". I am the third generation - the one ready to process the horriblities of traumatic history.
I'm following your messages @magpie, and will reply when I've processed it all.
Thanks so much for your insights.
Hugs to you and your girls as you break this cycle of pain.
I feel like I'll never know the truth but my guesses are lining up to form a story... a story maybe largely false when it comes to facts but calling to be told to name the feelings.
It's her last year in high school when the war comes, her home gets burned down in the first weeks. She's pretty, from a respected but not really wealthy family, the oldest of the four siblings. They're left with what they could have grabbed when running from the air strike.
They move to a distant relative, being allowed to stay at the exchange of helping with his business. Her father dies the first winter. She commits to working and studying to support the devastated family.
Now the guesses come: The man who gave them shelter was far from saint. He couldn't ignore a pretty 18yo under his roof. He came when she was sweeping glass shards in the destroyed store. Subtly blackmailed her.
She had a mother and younger siblings to support. She feared losing shelter again. She feared in general - that awful war was full of people dying from both violence and poverty. She had to support her nearest and dearest no matter what...
It was awful. She thought it was not really happening, every time he lowered his pants and she, scared, agreed to his will - she felt she was not really there, it didn't really happen... she cried when no one could see. Of course she told no one, she had them to protect, to ensure their shelter. She felt like she didn't deserve to live, she didn't deserve to eat, she buried herself in work and study and pretended that, as much as it was possible at all during that war, her life was good and fulfilling. For five long years.
She married as soon as the war is over, to a much older man she barely knew. He was a good man but not great with emotions and stuff. She was hoping to undo all that happened, be a perfect wife, perfect mother, loving and caring. She was a perfect wife and perfect mother! No, she was horrible, not deserving to live, standing at an open window and shouting she's giong to jump out while her chldren listened... no, she was a good mother! Look, come, tell me I'm loving, tell me I'm good, show me all the respect for my sacrifice!
The memoriees got clouded. No, it didn't really happen. The war was horrible, yes, the war was horrible, everyone knows it, so that's it, the war was horrible, she remembers seeing a man with his legs torn off by a bomb, she remembers pain in her legs when she had to walk in snow in too small and too light shoes. Everyone knows the war was horrible. That's all she remembers. And this something, clouded and swollen in her soul, no, it doesn't exist, she's not crazy, she's good and loving, she deserves all the respect!
It's some framework of facts filled with pure guesses. The reallity might have been completely different. It just... fits the feelings best.
Wow Magpie, thank you, that is quite a clever way of framing it.
And chilling.
I've met people with a similar family history and the burden passes to the next generations. Terrible deeds and events are never "contained" and have a way of lingering - people are pressured to move on, but the past often reverberates through the generations, even if individuals can be mostly oblivious how long ago was the damage inflicted and started the cycle. Even more so if such events are hidden or censored - it can happen at a national level too.
I feel there is a past of trauma that my nation has never worked through - and I put it in this story. I think my nation is still in denial when it comes to being betrayed and abused by your own kind.
Not by some Nazi Germans, not by some Soviet Russians but by your own family and friends that turned out to be opportunistic predators when the war acted as a great enabler.
We maintain myths of heroes and we wear our Righteous Among the Nations titles with pride and we get extremely touchy when someone tries to adress the less-than-perfect cards of the story. It's true for the war, it's true for post-war times, it's true here and now. We can't adress these stories because the fear of external enemies is still too strong, we need to support "our kind" no matter what and the stories of abuse never get told.
It's just now happening in the Catholic church in Poland. Evidence of systematic hiding of abuse surfaces and the reactions are completely illogical - instead of cleaning and repairing as much as possible, there is siege mentality of "protecting the memory of John Paul II" by plainly denying that anything bad could have happened on his watch, and it it happened, no one knew, and if someone knew, it was the victim's fault.
While such stories and gossip were absolutely used by Communist state to undermine the church, the church seems not to see that the war is over and it's time to clean up after it.
A related poem: https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/52955/the-end-and-the-beginning
Thank you for the poem, it captures the idea we're discussing very well and can be also scaled down to a personal level: we all have to take out the trash figuratively speaking, once in a while. Someone once used the metaphor that not dealing with our own baggage is like going through life dragging around a large bag full of shit - the stench kills you, but you still refuse to let go. Crass, but accurate.
I understand what you're saying about your own nation and recognise it both from my country of origin (even if the form in which it occurs is different) and discussions with friends from other places. Many of my Eastern European friends told me that once the Soviet Union's influence was established but they physically left, the next step was seeing their own countrymen taking advantage of the situation and ruthlessly suppressing, oppressing and destroying those who stood in their way and running the country into the ground. They often quote as the main reason for leaving and refusing to return the fact that their countries still don't take their share of responsibility for these events and hide behind the otherwise correct fact of being sacrificed at the end of the war. Many of those who caused great harm amassed fortunes and kept taking advantage of the situation and their own people after the Wall fell, during a transition that was both full of great difficulties but also... opportunities.
In a strange and I'd say unhealthy way, denying the worst aspects of the past seems to be the conventional way of "moving on", both for individuals and sometimes whole nations. Even if it always ends catching up with us or our children.
It is my understanding that the protection and preservation of The Church (not just Catholic, but any denomination that turned the church into an institution) are supposed to be above everything else, even the truth. And people are often reluctant, to say the least, to admit that strong historical figures or great artists made mistakes and had most of the weaknesses inherent to the human condition. They probably think this preserves their integrity, while an old iconoclast like me thinks it diminishes it through lies.
I am with you magpie, I embrace you, there is so much truth and wisdom in your discernments. I also have CPTSD, and I am so very happy to be among good friends.
Thinking of it, I have a feeling that my whole nation has collective symptoms of BPD, going through idealisation and devaluation cycles, in vain trying to fill some painful void with heroic myths and self-hatred... it's so hard to see the reality the way it is.
I really appreciate the Germans' courage to face their difficult past. I wish we had it.
I don't identify as an inconoclast, I do appreciate sacred art of many cultures and inherent value of spirituality - but yes, not admitting that even the most important historical figures were merely humans with all their limitations is an awful and common disease.
The way I feel it, admitting humanity of a saint makes them real, relatable and carrying the message much better.
In this particular case, the available evidence indicates rather enormous corruption of Vatican (which is an old news, to say the least, Francis is trying to do at least something about it but the process is sloooow) than personal fault of JPII - but, nevertheless, you're not allowed to touch this topic or you're the enemy of the church, nation and any morality there is!
Which, obviously, backfires like hell.
Well, I myself prefer seeing The Truth, rather than embracing ideas that are designed for emotional comfort, at the expense of actuality.
I took Morpheus's "red pill", when I was 22, and prefer to see the dystopia we live in.
I know the term is mostly associated with a desire to destroy , but as far as I'm concerned, an iconoclast doesn't necessarily want to taint or destroy such values, but asks for the taboo to be destroyed, allowing things to be examined and even criticised when needed.
Couldn't agree more.
If we define iconoclasm that way, I'm one, too :D
It's not about tearing down icons - unless I see a trunk or a tusk lurking from behind them. But it's not about the icons, it's about the elephant.
Then we're definitely on the same page
Don't beat yourself up over being "negative", this is the place to reach out when you struggle.
I recognise what you describe only too well. I think that right after a shock, isolating yourself is actually a healthy reaction meant to protect you: it minimises outside stimulants or aggressors and gives you time to start processing what happened. I usually go into shutdown, but even my allistic wife needs to take some time when something significant happens before she can talk about it or reach out.
The current situation makes things worse: not only we've been under a lot of stress, but it makes it easier to self-isolate for longer than it's healthy. I struggle with this too, particularly since right now there's no actual need for me to get out of the house or see others and it makes me apathetic and sluggish.
Taking some time is good, just watch out for the desire to curl in a ball and shut everything off or not wanting to get out of bed, it's the kind of red flag I use to recognise when I actually can't deal with things by myself and should reach out to someone.
It's a similar process to grieving and people experience it differently. It sounds like a good idea to try to get yourself to talk to your therapist and we're here for you, sending good wishes and spoons
(Some personal questions that came to mind, I think its obvious, but just to be clear, I'm putting them here as reflective prompts, not as questions I am asking you in this public situation.)
I mean who does the angry reaction belong to, your authentic self? Your conditioned self? Where does the judgement come from? Where does the tendency for judgement come from? What role does it serve? Is it needed now?
Do any of these perceptions belong to your inner child? How would she view you in this situation? What would she say or do if she witnessed this as a bystander?
What would she think of you as a person, your accomplishments, would she be impressed by your occupations, hobbies, voluntary work etc?
I feel that giving her a voice in how you perceive yourself, how you speak to yourself, could be a needed act of loving kindness, for her and for you.
My inner child was forced into silence and is barricaded in and she is reluctant to trust even my adult self. I do know that I admire my young child self, she was brave and compassionate and had the sense to leave home as soon as she could no matter what. How does she perceive me? As someone who has let her down and made all the wrong choices despite distancing myself from my family. I married someone evil because abuse feels like home and I let my inner child down. My therapist can't entice her to let me in, she doesn't trust me at all if that makes any sense.
The judgement comes from conditioning I believe, everything was always my fault, I was always stupid and inadequate and retarded. If I voiced an opinion it was met with at best being ridiculed at worst gaslighted or hit. I was abused so much mentally you would need to try and behead me for me to notice something was wrong. I have tried my best and my motto is of course that my best will just have to be good enough.
This is speaking to my heart Teach and the response is longer than intended, but it would feel disrespectful to my authentic self to shorten it for the sake of convention....
I have the crappy childhood/early adulthood T shirt too, in many ways I understand and at the same time, I haven't walked in your shoes, there will always be circumstances or context I don't have personal experience with and as an Autistic, this can be a challenge.
I may have jumped ahead a bit with the questions, btw, there is a conditioned part of me that deeply wants to apologise for this and a recently (last 2yrs) nurtured simultaneous loving part of me says gently, 'you didn't know, you done no harm, the apology is a reflex from the past, that way of being isn't needed for now'.
Ohh congratulations on the anger part, for me that change made an immense difference! It was like my perception of the world changed and I found a fire in my soul, it lasted quite a few months from what I recall, before I needed help to move on from it.
A brave and compassionate child... sounds a lot like me as a kiddo, one thing that helped me with being accurate in the words my inner child would use, her perception, was having a photo of myself, perhaps aged 4, if I looked that photo in the eye and was able to speak authentically for her then the words had credence.
She never says an unkind word, always compassionate, always knowing.
It seems like guilt is playing a large part in your response, where does that come from? Who does it belong to? Who placed it there? Is it linked to the judgement tendencies?
When I journeyed with my past selves, at age 4, 7, 13, 15, 17, 21, 25, 30 etc I realised that 21 and 25 were especially judgemental, even cruel, it was their voice I carried inside of me, polluting the brave and compassionate self talk from my younger self, with harshness and ridicule.
I think of the 4-7 year old me as the authentic me, yes bad things had happened by then, but when I focus on the purest parts of who I am, it is she that inspires me, she is the closest version I know to the real me.
I married an evil masshole too, it was what I knew also, the familiar, the known, despite being educated about and understanding the cycle of abuse, I ended up with someone who layered more hurt upon the hurt from childhood... Why? How could I let this happen?
I was not as self aware then as I am now, the judgement has no place except to reinforce the feelings of inadequacy that abuse conditioned and reinforced, that judgement doesnt belong to the real me, it belongs to a hitchhiker on my journey.
The real me, the brave and compassionate 4-7 yr old me knows this, how could I do better if I hadn't the tools in my toolkit? I done the best I could with the hand I was dealt.
Amity I really value you opening up your heart, I hope you feel okay and had a good rest. You have made me feel so much better.
I think your duty of self care in this situation was excellent, you drew a line in the sand and held firm despite the chaos in your mind and body, that is no small feat to achieve.
Oh yes Im good, Im aiming to respectfully listen to what my mind and body need after a few decades of ignoring these needs and pushing through all sorts of pain.
When I needed help some very kind people were there for me and held a place for me to speak and be listened to, as best they could until I could get professional help. There can be tremendous value in the process of peer support... giving and receiving, both being beneficial.