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Unwanted

Feeling more and more unwanted.

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  • verityverity Administrator, Citizen
    edited April 2023
    I understand firemonkey, I'm just not sure how to make you feel more wanted other than through reinsurance.

    Really the idea of this space is for people to be comfortable being who they are, with respect to all members, but at the same time we can't control response. This is a low volume site, and that come with certain realities, pros and cons.

    My personal take on this is self-acceptance is the way forward, but that is something that only individual can get to that realisation.
  • verityverity Administrator, Citizen
    Have you considered counselling for to help with self image/worth? I know your expericne with mental health services hasn't always been positive, however person centred counselling and talk therapy is  much more about what the client wants to focus on to help overcome trauma,  anxiety etc and not a prescriptive approach. 

    You can self refer on the NHS


    Or go through your GP

    There are also online services where you can look at the counsellor's experience and accreditation.

    Directive protocols like CBT are also a possibility but personalty would suggest talking to someone first, and only moving to a directive approach when you feel it is right for you and you have a clear idea what you wish to focus on.

  • Thanks Verity. I personally would not go down the CBT route.  I've come across too many cases of 'It's your faulty thinking  that makes you think X' rather than 'X happened and we'll help you deal with it better'.
  • verityverity Administrator, Citizen
    Thanks Verity. I personally would not go down the CBT route.  I've come across too many cases of 'It's your faulty thinking  that makes you think X' rather than 'X happened and we'll help you deal with it better'.
    Well I wouldn't do any directive approach first personally, however technically speaking CBT is more about how thinking cognition and behaviour can be connected in a cycle rather then any specific thing being "wrong" think.

    However I do know what you mean it isn't for everybody or perhaps most people. Person centred is a much better option to start rather than aimless stab at a directive protocol until you have concluded one might help you, if that is nessisary at all.

    If a trainer is implying that  social situation can't be negative outside of your beliefs they aren't helping you deal with negative social situations, it is just that not all social situation have to be negative, and also being on the spectrum changes what a client might want (not want) from social interaction. It should be used as a tool rather absolute rule for life.

  • For me it would be-1)X happened (non debatable)  2. How do I cope better with the effects of X?
  • verityverity Administrator, Citizen
    edited April 2023
    For me it would be-1)X happened (non debatable)  2. How do I cope better with the effects of X?

    Well that would be directive.

    It may be counter intuitive but a big part of counselling effectiveness is though talking, rather then through telling you what to do.  In some case is this has far greater efficacy than prescriptive approaches.

    You might think becuase some protocol with obvious logical steps  which is regimented this would be more effective than talking, but this isn't always the case.  Regimented "logical" approaches by their nature rely on some assumptions, where as talk helps with self realisation and personal insight without imposing it on you.

    I think probably you would prefer a mixed a approach where they are providing coping advice, as well as being able to talk about you experiences and feelings. But it would be more like suggestions, it will go the direction you need it to go, that is the whole point of person centred. It gives you a voice.

    I think for trauma, there are different stages and it helps to have a mix of strategies.
  • I don't dismiss talking as a part of '2'.  Re 'fine tuning' how best to approach things.  What I don't want, and have come across others who've experienced this, is the invalidation of 'You only think that happened because of faulty thinking'. I know what happened. What I've always struggled with is 'how best to deal with what happened?' I indeed would prefer a mixed approach , as I think that would be more suited to arriving at a coping mechanism  that is best for me as an individual.
  • AmityAmity Administrator, Citizen
    As I see it, just as your peer, the assurances I've given you in the past didn't change how you feel, it seems unlikely that saying the same things again will alter how you feel going forward.

    I agree that specialist help, from a counsellor (ideally with personal experience of disability) could assist you with these feelings and the impact they are having on your life
  • That's  because I've had a lot of experiences where people will latch onto such a thread to prove me wrong, only to soon go back to the non responding that had me making the thread in the 1st place.
  • AmityAmity Administrator, Citizen
    That's  because I've had a lot of experiences where people will latch onto such a thread to prove me wrong, only to soon go back to the non responding that had me making the thread in the 1st place.

    Do you mean that you post the thread knowing that it won't help you?
  • Amity said:
    .

    Do you mean that you post the thread knowing that it won't help you?
    I post the thread hoping, maybe naively, that things will be different  this time round. There won't be  the thoroughly dishonest  response . 'We don't reply because we don't like you'= hurtful but honest.   Cynically latching onto such a thread in order to make out I'm wrong, only to very soon revert back  to non response= throroughly dishonest.

  • AmityAmity Administrator, Citizen
    Can/do other people apply the same thought process when they don't receive a response from you?

    Can I for example assume that your lack of response to some of my past threads are evidence that in fact you do not like me?
  • verityverity Administrator, Citizen
    edited April 2023
    There is a lot of pressure and responsibility associated with a statement like that becuase it poses a hypothesis with two limited possibilities and a test that is not falsifiable. Non-falsifiable statements cannot be proven wrong and therefore not a reasonable hypothesis.  It is is self fulfilling and somewhat of a catch-22 from the point of view of the person replying so is naturally daunting.

    I re-iteratiate we are all equals here, so there is no more expectation for you to reply to other's post than other's to reply to your posts. I have pointed this out before not to criticise or ask to to contribute more, but to help you apply the same expectation you place on others for yourself or at least put things into perspective.

    Even if their self worth was affected by this I still would not compel you reply to them.

    Naturally if someone feels hurt by some post not being responded to that is understandable but it needs to be seen in a broader context of reasonable expectations. Not every post is going to be responded to and it can take time to get responses, on a low volume site.

    If I measured my self worth on the number responses I got to posts over the years I would be upset too. I used to post long niche post that often fell flat, instead of letting it get to me I considered what post would be worth posting in what content and how to post, but even so I'm long winded and that is ok. Sometime I just wan to get it out response or not.

    The reason for suggesting counselling is it is offering somethign untrained member can't but what member can do is offer practical suggestions like that. 

    I find it is more liberating to not get stuck on what didn't work. We all know how to beat ourselves up over this and I get stuck on this too. It is a bit related to and ASD/OCD type of obsessive thinking I have, but am aware of.
  • firemonkeyfiremonkey Citizen
    edited April 2023
    I'm very sensitive when it comes to what feels like 'social rejection'. It's very easy on an intellectual level to grasp what you're both saying and to see the sense in it, but on a raw,emotional ,level much harder. It's not something that restricted to the internet. I've had a lot of difficulty making friends. I was, and probably still am, one of the least liked boys to go to my British public school. I was subjected to a huge amount of social rejection alongside the severe verbal bullying. I'm quite asocial, but not totally so. I do like some face to face interaction with others.

    The trouble is efforts to socialise more have been varying degrees of utter failure. The last attempt was a group at my local library lead by a self described 'radical social worker'. I find it hard to initiate conversation, but replied to things as best I could. From the lack of response I got I might as well have been talking to myself. The rest of the group  were getting on fine with each other. The rancid cherry on top of a stale cake was that 'radical social worker' making a snide remark,re my money being on a string, when I paid for my refreshments. I had paid the same as a woman 5 minutes before me who'd not  received such a response. Social rejection and humiliation.

     The effects of the bullying and social rejection are not something I can automatically switch off  when participating on a forum. Especially when I get a response  that's dishonest. Classic example: 'I was busy doing other things'. Yet the  person had managed to find the time to respond to 3 other people. 

    Thankfully I have my family here in the SW of England .They love me and I love them. I'm not as isolated as I was when living in Essex. I've given up trying to have more social interaction. I'm not willing to subject myself to even more of  the emotional pain that goes with social rejection.

    I do have some 'friends' on FB and those I follow and am followed by on Twitter. Over 90% of those FB friends are from the high intelligence community there. The vast majority have sent a request to me rather than vice versa. I've been very open about my SMI, and they still accept me ,warts and all.  I also follow,and am followed by, a few people on Mastodon.
  • AmityAmity Administrator, Citizen
    I'm very sensitive when it comes to what feels like 'social rejection'. It's very easy on an intellectual level to grasp what you're both saying and to see the sense in it, but on a raw,emotional ,level much harder. It's not something that restricted to the internet. I've had a lot of difficulty making friends. I was, and probably still am, one of the least liked boys to go to my British public school. I was subjected to a huge amount of social rejection alongside the severe verbal bullying. I'm quite asocial, but not totally so. I do like some face to face interaction with others.

    To me, in the context of this thread only, it sounds like the emotional reaction is very strong and out of proportion to the percieved social rejection.
    This is I believe quite common for Autistic people, its something that happens inside me too. The feelings you have are real, they are valid and belong to the past experiences, no question on their validity. Did you know that the pain of social rejection is processed in the same part of the brain that processes physical pain, I learned that recently, I too am quite sensitive and feel pain quite deeply.

    To be frank I consider your approach to this relatable and understandable, but must ask you to consider the impact on me, your peer, your equal when you insinuate that 'I or we' are the same as the people who harmed you in the past; the people who harmed you in the past are the contemporaries of those who harmed me or us in the past... meaning to varying degrees every Autistic person feels or has felt as you do.

    The trouble is efforts to socialise more have been varying degrees of utter failure. The last attempt was a group at my local library lead by a self described 'radical social worker'. I find it hard to initiate conversation, but replied to things as best I could. From the lack of response I got I might as well have been talking to myself. The rest of the group  were getting on fine with each other. The rancid cherry on top of a stale cake was that 'radical social worker' making a snide remark,re my money being on a string, when I paid for my refreshments. I had paid the same as a woman 5 minutes before me who'd not  received such a response. Social rejection and humiliation.
    It seemed on the outside that this social situation could be different, but it was the same as before, I find that my experiences in these situations are similar, though I dont attend hoping for inclusion or validation.
    For me attending autistic meet ups was a game changer, in those situations the playing field is level and everyones way of communicating is normal.

    The effects of the bullying and social rejection are not something I can automatically switch off  when participating on a forum. Especially when I get a response  that's dishonest. Classic example: 'I was busy doing other things'. Yet the  person had managed to find the time to respond to 3 other people.
    I dont believe you should switch them off Firemonkey, the emotions are a powerful signal demanding your attention and only grow stronger when ignored. It sounds to me like trauma, trauma from many harmful social experiences that now act as a block to you functioning amongst your peers.
    The key point to remember is that every Autistic person you are interacting with has their own struggles, yours are not more important than theirs, theirs are not more important than yours. You simply cant know why an autistic person doesnt reply, the rules for typical NT communication do not and should not apply or be expected here.

    Thankfully I have my family here in the SW of England .They love me and I love them. I'm not as isolated as I was when living in Essex. I've given up trying to have more social interaction. I'm not willing to subject myself to even more of  the emotional pain that goes with social rejection.
    I urge you to ask your family for support with this, but through an Autistic lens only. I echo Veritys post above, you seem to need counselling to help you process past traumas, the help you are seeking in your round about way requires specialist training. It is simply impossible for any of your peers here to meet those needs, nor is it fair for you to expect that of us... As it would be unfair for me to turn to you and expect you to meet my needs, which are beyond your abilities and require specialist training.
    I do have some 'friends' on FB and those I follow and am followed by on Twitter. Over 90% of those FB friends are from the high intelligence community there. The vast majority have sent a request to me rather than vice versa. I've been very open about my SMI, and they still accept me ,warts and all.  I also follow,and am followed by, a few people on Mastodon.
    What we can do here is talk, explore, find courage through supporting eachother, I am a volunteer, as is Verity, we both have commitments outside of Neurovoice, eg work college, we both have our own challenges, same as any other autistic person. Sometimes I have my own mental health difficulties, that doesnt mean that I dont still want to interact with others online, but my avalibility of social spoons is reserved for me, and my focus is on what will help me and meet my needs in those periods.
  • Did you know that the pain of social rejection is processed in the same part of the brain that processes physical pain, I learned that recently, I too am quite sensitive and feel pain quite deeply.
    I used to think I had a low pain threshold, but I had 2 falls in October 2021- the pain from which was dismissed as psychological by paramedics and a GP. It was very difficult  but I did my best to do what the physios wanted. After a lot of effort from  my daughter's I got transport to have an x ray done. That was 7 weeks after the falls. It revealed a broken femur.

    What  I do get sometimes is a flu like reaction to stress.


    To be frank I consider your approach to this relatable and understandable, but must ask you to consider the impact on me, your peer, your equal when you insinuate that 'I or we' are the same as the people who harmed you in the past; the people who harmed you in the past are the contemporaries of those who harmed me or us in the past... meaning to varying degrees every Autistic person feels or has felt as you do.
    I don't see any of you as being  anywhere near as bad at that. But If I have caused you to think that I see you, and the others here, in the same vein as those who harmed  me in the past then I apologise.  It's something that stems from fearful expectation.  A subclinical PTSD  type reaction I'd venture to say. 

    I don't see any of you as  being akin to therapists. I never have, and never would, expect another autistic and/or severely mentally ill person to fulfil that role. 
  • AmityAmity Administrator, Citizen
    Did you know that the pain of social rejection is processed in the same part of the brain that processes physical pain, I learned that recently, I too am quite sensitive and feel pain quite deeply.
    I used to think I had a low pain threshold, but I had 2 falls in October 2021- the pain from which was dismissed as psychological by paramedics and a GP. It was very difficult  but I did my best to do what the physios wanted. After a lot of effort from  my daughter's I got transport to have an x ray done. That was 7 weeks after the falls. It revealed a broken femur.

    What  I do get sometimes is a flu like reaction to stress.


    To be frank I consider your approach to this relatable and understandable, but must ask you to consider the impact on me, your peer, your equal when you insinuate that 'I or we' are the same as the people who harmed you in the past; the people who harmed you in the past are the contemporaries of those who harmed me or us in the past... meaning to varying degrees every Autistic person feels or has felt as you do.
    I don't see any of you as being  anywhere near as bad at that. But If I have caused you to think that I see you, and the others here, in the same vein as those who harmed  me in the past then I apologise.  It's something that stems from fearful expectation.  A subclinical PTSD  type reaction I'd venture to say. 

    I don't see any of you as  being akin to therapists. I never have, and never would, expect another autistic and/or severely mentally ill person to fulfil that role. 

    For me, this has been a meaningful interaction Firemonkey; we dont know eachother personally, yet have been in the same online community for sometime, for what it is worth I do care about you, as I tend to do for many autistic people online.
    I think it is a beautiful experience to genuinely connect with another person many miles away, and I thank you for that.

    Difficult feelings are perfectly normal, I know deep down that you dont see your peers the same as those who harmed you,  but started to wonder otherwise when you were writing things to see how we would respond.

    Maybe next time ask me straight out, or I might suggest that there is more happening than we see at the surface level, and if comfortable you could talk about that? Or not, whatever 🙂

    There are days and weeks where I need all my spoons just to support my employment, but then there are periods where I have time and spare spoons and would gladly spend them here, where I'm normal or typical amongst peers.

    I am pausing now on how much pain you were in for weeks and wonder if you could use the psychological harm caused as a result of the pain to access talk therapy through the NHS?
    Not as a stick to hit them with, but as a valid reason to be placed on a waiting list for counselling.

    I am sorry that happened to you, its upsetting just to think that you weren't listened to as a person with a communication disability.
  • Confession time- I've never got the 'spoons' thing. As for the not being listened to due to the falls. I think that was due as much to having a severe mental illness than the ASD. I don't always come across well F2F. My social communication score on the ADOS was at classical autism level. Some people see me as being a little simple minded,or at least they act as though I am. Others  have expected me to be good at b c d e etc because I'm good at a. 

    Re the harm ,psychological or otherwise, there's an ongoing clinical negligence  claim.
  • AmityAmity Administrator, Citizen
    Confession time- I've never got the 'spoons' thing. As for the not being listened to due to the falls. I think that was due as much to having a severe mental illness than the ASD. I don't always come across well F2F. My social communication score on the ADOS was at classical autism level. Some people see me as being a little simple minded,or at least they act as though I am. Others  have expected me to be good at b c d e etc because I'm good at a. 

    Re the harm ,psychological or otherwise, there's an ongoing clinical negligence  claim.
    This is a link to Christine Miserandino's spoon theory: https://butyoudontlooksick.com/articles/written-by-christine/the-spoon-theory/
    I like this graphic representations in this link:

    Ah ok, perhaps you can also get GP referred for counselling, it can take a while to find someone who is the right fit.


  • firemonkeyfiremonkey Citizen
    edited April 2023
    I've had some 'therapy'  before. It didn't go well.  First one came out with remarks like 'Most boys  have rebelled against their mothers by the age of 7' and would randomly say things like 'How to cook a goose'. I missed a session because I wasn't feeling well with a bad cold/flu . He got quite shirty about it when my wife phoned to inform him. Previous to that there'd  been a very uncomfortable session  where I'd waited 25 minutes for him to say something I could reply to. I find it hard to initiate conversations.

    The second one told me straight out he was seeing me because the rest of the psych staff were fed up with me. He then proceeded to  tell me that 'If I wanted to be a good person...' as though I was some common criminal. I dumped him rather quickly.

    Last  but not least was the woman,untrained in therapy, who worked at the day centre I attended. She was assigned to help me with my anxiety. She told me I had low self confidence and self esteem, and then decided to majorly criticise everything I said and did. After a while she told me she was a member of a small religious sect. It all fell apart  when I wrote some stuff so she could  get to know me better, and hopefully respond in a more appropriate manner to me. That inadvertently  upset her religious sensibilities, and she dumped me -after having reported her discomfort to my care coordinator.  That  triggered memories of a bad experience at prep school when I was singled out to be punished  but had done nothing wrong. I can remember being quite stressed and tearful as the care coordinator spoke  to me. After all that I was labelled 'unsuitable for therapy'.


  • AmityAmity Administrator, Citizen
    I've had some 'therapy'  before. It didn't go well.  First one came out with remarks like 'Most boys  have rebelled against their mothers by the age of 7' and would randomly say things like 'How to cook a goose'. I missed a session because I wasn't feeling well with a bad cold/flu . He got quite shirty about it when my wife phoned to inform him. Previous to that there'd  been a very uncomfortable session  where I'd waited 25 minutes for him to say something I could reply to. I find it hard to initiate conversations.

    The second one told me straight out he was seeing me because the rest of the psych staff were fed up with me. He then proceeded to  tell me that 'If I wanted to be a good person...' as though I was some common criminal. I dumped him rather quickly.

    Last  but not least was the woman,untrained in therapy, who worked at the day centre I attended. She was assigned to help me with my anxiety. She told me I had low self confidence and self esteem, and then decided to majorly criticise everything I said and did. After a while she told me she was a member of a small religious sect. It all fell apart  when I wrote some stuff so she could  get to know me better, and hopefully respond in a more appropriate manner to me. That inadvertently  upset her religious sensibilities, and she dumped me -after having reported her discomfort to my care coordinator.  That  triggered memories of a bad experience at prep school when I was singled out to be punished  but had done nothing wrong. I can remember being quite stressed and tearful as the care coordinator spoke  to me. After all that I was labelled 'unsuitable for therapy'.



    I can relate in a different way to your stories about therapy, those three experiences alone would be enough to put anyone off counselling.
    With online/video therapy, from the comfort of my home, I have found better matches than those in my immediate area, counsellors who specalise in Autism.
    Like you I have many traumas to unpack, the most success I have had is with online/video therapy, I cant help but feel that an Autistic or Neurodiverse therapist (registered with a national regulating body) would be a better fit for you than an NT.

    I've had (due to my location and situation) to avail of low cost counselling, this has meant I didnt get to choose my therapist, what I did get out of those situations was mixed, but over time (20-ish years) I did learn how to use the services as a way to offload, sometimes just having a listening ear was good enough.

    Idea: You could journal in preparation for therapy and have these as talking points, I've been told that many Autistic people find this way of combining talk and the written word a better fit than communicating through talk alone.
    You could even collate your online posts as talking points...

    I can relate to punishment in school, being singled out by a teacher, the whole approach back then was so harmful and abusive in many situations.
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