Narcissism or Aspergers?

williampretzel

Can anyone help me determine if I have Aspergers or narcissism? My friends sometimes have this debate and are split all the time. They say I have Aspergers because I am very honest and I talk about fringe topics while laughing and showing no emotion. Fringe topics include topics like crime and murder. They think that I am pretty open to talk about my life and generally dont lie to them so I have to have Aspergers syndrome. They also say I am a little quirky but not too much. At the same time, they say I can still maintain eye contact and can have a good conversation with people if I am interested and in proper mood.

Let me tell you a little more about myself. I was born in the 1990s. When I was young, I liked to get attention from people in school saying things like "oh I eat glue" when I didnt actual glue. I used to get in fights with people. The only thing stopping me was criminal or disciplinary actions but I had a decent chunk of minor disciplinary action for strangling kid that pissed me off in school and mouthing off to teachers. I once got upset at a girl in school that made fun of me somehow so I hunted her down and threw vinegar in face as kid and I also threw paint at the door of her house. That incident got unpunished. I tried to throw a cat out of the window from the apartment complex.

One time I was friendly fighting a friend and broke his head and he had to go to the ER and made me feel upset for a little cause I never meant to break his head. My grandfather wrote my parents a letter when I was young saying that I was undisicplined, an a-hole, and had a violent view toward any animals.  The teachers at school told my parents I may have ADHD but never suggested autism spectrum or narcissism or anything else.

My parents would get very mad at me over slights as I was growing up. For instance, if I accidentely spilled water on the floor, my mom would start yelling for a long time and if I got a B- on a test, my dad would get very mad.

I could be a literal person but I was literal a lot of times to get away from emotional topics or to show people how much I know about a topic.  Some people called me a good conversationist.

Growing up, I was also a love/hate character. I could network with a lot of people but didnt get very close with most/all people only a few. I always wanted to act out and be different. I liked negative attention and I also liked to beat the system. I would learn how to pass classes without being in class by taking tests. I began to hack everyone's computer and was actually fairly good at it. People characterized me as fairly smart. Some people however saw me as purposefully annoying. I had a habit of torturing cats but wouldnt seriously hurt the cats.

I liked to experiment with very hard and dangerous drugs and tell people "guess what I have experimented with high dose IV cocaine", often intentionally shocking people who werent as reckless. I would drive cars at 150 miles per hour and engage in other thrills. I would also do unusual things like tell girls I would kill myself or call their parents to tell dirt on them if they didnt date me.

I knew a lot about topics like military history, foreign countries, drugs, law, science, and other topics to a great extent and could learn a lot about various topics. I always knew a lot about some topics but people also saw me as fairly ecletic. When I used to party too hard, people said I obsess over drugs sometimes and people said I get obsessed over issues like respect and victory. I always need to win contests and win medals and tell people about how I won and how I am better.

I ended up dating several women but all of them for some reason had similar or related issues like dissociative identity and borderline personality disorder. I do not know if this is coincidental.

In middle school, I made troll videos where I would harass stores with friends and film it and also blow things up and set things on fire. We would hand out these videos to people at the school.

I used to have empathy while growing up but I always had selective empathy. There were people who I had a lot of empathy for like people who were unfairly treated by police and I had 0 empathy for other people who I wanted destroyed like people didnt say good things about me (a lot of times people didnt say good things about me cause I was a class clown sort of).

Most recently, my friends asked me questions about my life to determine if I have Aspergers and Narcissism and couldnt figure out. Some people told me "you must have Aspergers syndrome. You seem to do weird things socially like purposefully try to make people uncomfortable for your entertainment and you are brutally honest if you had narcissism you wouldnt be as honest and wouldnt say things like 'I used to hack computers' you would keep it secret. also you are one of the most intelligent people i know and intelligent people have Aspergers. you also have very good manipulation skills and can read people well but you dont have the best people skills. you are not patient with people and dont care much for many peoples' problems" Other people say "no its narcissism and you can be honest and have other liimited characteristics of Aspergers and not be diagnosed with Aspergers". It is true that I am generally honest but I do not think that me saying things like me hacking computers is a bad thing or will get me in trouble. It happened a long time ago and I think it actually shows that I can beat the system. I actually think that there are more criminal or more severe things I have done before that I wouldnt announce to even my friends and I think the stuff that I do mention is cool. I also like the company and the attenton of mentioning these things. I enjoy saying triggering things to some people (but not all people in all situations) cause I find it entertaining. I cannot be by myself adn always need consistent social interaction. I also sometimes do lie. For instance, I create elaborate stories to my parents and family sometime. However, I prefer not to lie unless there is a great benefit to it. I would rather be 99% honest and lie 1% of the time about something big.

I always have trouble being by myself and need constant social interaction (including posting on this forum right now) or stimulation.

Based on this, am I more likely to have Aspergers syndrome or narcissism?

Statest16

It could be both and we must be honest in that narcissism is a bit in all of us.Narcissistic personality disorder as a medical condition is when people are so narcissistic they it's diagnosable.We all have some narcissism in us to an extent and introverts are going to be more so in general.Spending time alone puts more focus on the self.I saw recently a woman in Walmart covered from head to toe in tattoo's and the skimmpy clothes to show it off,an obvious large amount of self focus.

You probably (Aspergers being archaic) have ASD level 1; I would doubt otherwise you'd be here.I doubt you have "Narcissistic Personality disorder" they would likely be to haughty to go to a autism website,and they would think to much of there opinions to ask other people.They would do there own research and have uber confidence in there opinions.

Amity

To speculate, it could be both, or neither, Autistic people can have personality disorders. ADHD with a personality disorder could also be a fit, the part with hurting animals is more of a signpost for anti social traits... based on your post I feel that exploring personality disorders could provide you with relatable information.

verity

^edit" what stood out most from you post is antisocial behaviours and some impulsive and sadistic tendencies. These would not  be associated with ASD. This is not a diagnosis. Narcissism will have antisocial aspects of course but that is specifically associated with conditions like Anti-social personality disorder, psychopathy and the childhood disorders conduct disorder and oppositional defiant disorder. Animal cruelty is more associated with those than narcissism.

I think where some people might get confused is the difference between asocial an anti-social. Your friend and collogues will suggest what they know about based on their understanding, which is not a substitute for a professional opinion. There is a public perception of what a narcissist  is but a forensic or clinical psychiatrists would understand it differently.

Honesty or bluntness is not enough to diagnose ASD. Sometime people are blunt becuase they are indifferent to people's opinions. Though they would explore that.

---

It is near impossible to diagnose someone with ASD or NPD on-line, even with that long account. Generally someone diagnosing you would not work purely on self reporting, or a auto-biography they would use that as reference including writing style but won't necessarily take it word for word but as an example of how you think as a via interpreting the composition and content. Also it would be unethical for me to do that on-line IMO. As Statest said these are not mutually exclusive.

My personal view is if you could benefit from an environment like this an believe you have autistic traits, then that is fine. Obviously you need to respect the rules and community.  Whether you like everyone or not.

If you really want to know I would get referred to a Psychiatrist, or centre the specialises in the Dx.

It is important to note these are models this is a way characterising human behaviour and traits, there are few absolutes in nature. However a diagnosis means it is clinically significant.

Personality disorders interest me. An extreme reaction to those that you perceived said bad thing about you or wronged you (especially what others would consider minor things) is charismatic of various personality disorder including NPD. NPD people generally are quite manipulative. That can be true of other condition like BPD, however in NPD it tend to be more calculated over a longer period of item the NPD, where as emotion in BPD by its nature are constantly changing and therefore their motivations are shifting back an forth. 

There two broad type of Narcissism. Grandiose and Vulnerable. In simple terms Grandiose means the person believe they are great or special right now, and they deserve to be treated that way. Vulnerable is a bit of a misnomer becuase it doesn't mean they are a vulnerable person, it refers to the belief that they deserve to be great or special but are being denied that by someone or group of people. Both type have sense of entitlement, but in vulnerable they resent those they perceive to have denied them that. With grandiose they become malignant when people stand in their way, but don't see themselves as victims generally. Sadistic and Psychopathic trait can be present in narcissist, though the motivation of a psychopath, is different to a narcissist.

The traditional position on NPD tend to focus more on grandiose and also they are resistant to treatment and don't recognise themselves as Narcissistic. It is difficult to give clear cut position now, but as both are extreme versions of entitled, egotistical and believing they either are special or deserve to be, then they would not likely admit to be narcissistic instead they would see themselves as special or entitled to be special. A psychopath on the other hand may admit to being a psychopath, becuase there is some fear factor associated with that, the issue with that to them is they loose some of the manipulative capability in doing that. Someone with Anti-social personality relies less on manipulation and more with much more immediate methods and likely would not care either way, but may be a badge of honour and has some fear factor too.

Contrary to popular perception, those with the three main personality disorders tend to be fairly average intelligence and spread across the bell curve. The super intelligent ones are rare. The terms mal-adpative and adaptive are used to denote how they fit into normal life expectation like having a successful job, and if the have criminal convictions, etc.

You talk about negative behaviour in order to attract attention or get what you want (I'm not sure of the extent), but what about positive behaviours? Have you ever heaped praise on someone or told someone what they want to hear and was the genuine or altruistic or specifically to get what you want out of them? Would this be a typical behaviour?

Aare you cruel to animals now? Would there be any parallels to how you treat people now compared to other animals you may have mistreated?

With narcissistic people I have encountered, they tend to either try trap people into being reliant on them or close or they totally excommunicate them. This becuase narcissists need to control their narrative, this is especially true of grandiose narcissists. Vulnerable narcissist want to control their outcome so can become socoiapatic and violent when they feel this loss of control. There can be a flipped state between grandiose person to vulnerable IMO, which is when narcissists are of most risk to the wider public.

A person used by are narcissist as an extension of their control is called a co-Narcissist, they may use them to enforce narcissistic norms such as making sure those in their circle don't interact with those they have excommunicated, or 'wronged' them. The web of entanglement can be quite intricate and they would have no qualms about using what they can to do entangle people in their lives. However this depend on intelligence.

I have had to cut narcissists out of my life before, not easy but no regrets, there is not point giving them warning or any prior communication, these are vulnerabilities they can manipulate. Even if you give them reason to excommunicate you this could backfire too.

An ASD Narcissist would necessarily be different becuase they would have to adapt the social cues issues. Not impossible though, but depend on using their intelligence, and observation skills to do that.

Empathy is nearly always selective, however psychopathic and sadistic behaviour is not normal response to that. However the big question is over recognising it to be wrong, not just relative to other's perception but having personal regret or contrition.  

verity

Trolling is sadistic behaviour. It is on a sliding scale though. Non malicious ribbing behaviour exist is may cultures and to a degree is normalised. 

Those the spend large amount of time malicious trolling I believe have an addiction to to the feeling the get out of it. Like many addictions, over time there are diminishing returns for the same effort.

Much of the literature on clinical sadistic traits link it to sexual paraphilia, even if the act is not conventionally sexual. I believe this to be true even for on-line trolling but they would not admit to this.

Some are just looking for a reaction from anyone does matter who. Any kind of reaction they are looking for that tiny bit of gratification they can get out of it.

Statest16

I'd agree seeing a doctor would be best and I agree fully with Verity that we can't and shouldn't diagnose you. Maybe see if you have ASD or maybe even NPD honestly although many people have narcissistic traits I doubt you have NPD because people with that want to be in control and likely would not go online asking others for advice.
Most people with a NPD DX don't get it until they crash and hit rock bottom and are forced to confront it.

verity

My experience with asking people in the ASD community is for most part ASD folk are not a fan of the "Autism defence" in criminal trials. There are times when it might be appropriate but generally speaking when a crime has occurred it won't simply be a case of Autism causing that crime alone.  My expericne of when it has succeed it relied in general ignorance of ASD and lack of detail of all the factors of their personality.

In one case Gary McKinnon I think it was a factor, but I would argue that he had a tendency toward conspiracy theories and beliefs found in the schizotypal spectru but there is likely an overlap in his case.. The other defence is the overall damage was exaggerated by the US authorities, given the damage was already done, and there was already many unauthorised access violation by many individual an likely state funded actors.  McKinnon's honesty got him in trouble becuase he alerted them to fact he was these and why. The damage to data argument make no sense as his intention was to preserve data.

So in general yes ASD people can be behave badly, even be arsehole but it is isn't a defence.

Statest16

verity said:

My experience with asking people in the ASD community is for most part ASD folk are not a fan of the "Autism defence" in criminal trials. 

 In the pending Parkland shooter penalty trial because he has already pled guilty to the crime and now the only question is will he be executed.
It had been rumored the defense would you autism and that Cruz is autistic,but thank god neither are true.

The defense has proceeded with "fetal alcohol spectrum disorder" FASD not ASD and although Cruz has showed some autistic traits FASD often mock's autism so Nikolas Cruz in not autistic.Good news for us for sure!

verity

Nikolas Cruz is a classic example of vulnerable narcissism. Incel pretty much characterises vulnerable narcissism.  It is not the only possibility of what they can obsess about, but a good example.

He may have FASD that doesn't mean he doesn't know what he is doing though.

verity

Cruz childhood background would be typical of those with narcissism, but also narcissists can also be spoilt and want for nothing. There is likely predisposition as well.

I think his sister was a champ. Hope she can get to a stable place an live a better life.

Statest16

verity said:

He may have FASD that doesn't mean he doesn't know what he is doing though.

Was not saying FASD means he is not responsible,only saying the autistic community can have the relief of knowing there not using autism as the mitigating factor.

Statest16

verity said:

Nikolas Cruz is a classic example of vulnerable narcissism. Incel pretty much characterises vulnerable narcissism.  

I'm not speculating on what Cruz is; I don't know him and I'm not a psychiatrist, I was only saying what his defense is using in court whether or whether not it's true or not.
However from the crime it's obvious he is a sociopath.

Also Cruz was to young (19) at the time of the crime to be quote "Incel" 19 Is still within healthy age for a male to be a virgin.I would say for males one would have to be at least 23 without a substantial relationship and still a virgin to be classified as "Incel"

All that can be truly said about Cruz is that he is a sociopath and whether FASD is mitigation is for the jury to decide.I'll give you the narcissist DX on Cruz because sociopathy would imply that but whether it's vulnerable or grandiose is not diagnosable by us.

verity

With Cruz evidence points to a motive related to Incel, he praised the Incel Elliot Rodger, there is strong evidence that rejection led to the shooting.

Of course the racist, anti-Semitic and misogynistic behviour was sociopathic but also narcissists are also looking for people to blame for their  lack of success, they can be resentful of others. Of course there is a lot of overlap.

Spree Killing and a sense of entitlement and victimhood tend to go hand in hand. Though of course not necessarily. Psychosis is also another possibility.

verity

Statest16 said:

Also Cruz was to young (19) at the time of the crime to be quote "Incel" 19 Is still within healthy age for a male to be a virgin.I would say for males one would have to be at least 23 without a substantial relationship and still a virgin to be classified as "Incel"

Incel is more of culture or world view, some self identify. I don't think there is an age for it, it is isn't a technical term as far as I'm aware. IMO

Statest16

verity said:

With Cruz evidence points to a motive related to Incel, he praised the Incel Elliot Rodger, there is strong evidence that rejection led to the shooting.

Of course the racist, anti-Semitic and misogynistic behviour was sociopathic but also narcissists are also looking for people to blame for their  lack of success, they can be resentful of others. Of course there is a lot of overlap.

Spree Killing and a sense of entitlement and victimhood tend to go hand in hand. Though of course not necessarily. Psychosis is also another possibility.

I don't know of all you speak and you may be right I have only seen really what is on court TV.

The defense asserted as mitigation that a combination fetal alcohol exposure causing psyche issues along with being twice orphaned.Being abandoned by a drug addicted prostitute mother then loosing adoptive mother push him over the edge.This a mitigation only toward sentence ,guilt not being contested,so not claiming legal insanity.

If you know things I don't more power to you

Statest16

verity said:

Statest16 said:

Also Cruz was to young (19) at the time of the crime to be quote "Incel" 19 Is still within healthy age for a male to be a virgin.I would say for males one would have to be at least 23 without a substantial relationship and still a virgin to be classified as "Incel"

Incel is more of culture or world view, some self identify. I don't think there is an age for it, it is isn't a technical term as far as I'm aware. IMO

Sounds like a Christopher Hitchens definition of the term "WASP" as meaning "of a privileged class" in the famous exchange where he called Catholic Bill Buckley a WASP.I agree more will Buckley that ,call someone of the privileged class if you like but a WASP is a "practicing church going protestant Christian of Germanic decent ,end of story.

"Incel" is someone celibate against there will.A lot may be misogynistic from repeated rejection but not all.There have been some cases of violence mainly in people already mentally ill like Rodgers.

Nevermind me I'm very literalist though,I define things narrowly.

verity

The term incel come from particular on-line communities that identity as incel, but has broader meaning now.

A better way to describe it is relationships was a factor in the shootings.

Statest16

verity said:

The term incel come from particular on-line communities that identity as incel, but has broader meaning now.

A better way to describe it is relationships was a factor in the shootings.

I do not know those online communities I have heard they exist buy have not seen them.I can not speak to that you may be right.

Yes ,I have read perceived romantic rejection has been a motive in some mass shootings.Elliot Rodgers and the van crash man in Canada.

Unless you have seen something I have not ,the defense in the Cruz case focused on the double orphanment and the pre natal substance exposure.

The prosecution among many things read texts sent to a girl who had a boyfriend but the prosecution never claimed that for motive.The prosecution also mentioned Cruz had searched cool looking medical cast designs because Cruz had wrist fracture at the time of the crime.Not every text read in evidence went to motive.

If you have read things I have not not then maybe your right,I have not read much on the case but did watch some on Court & Law TV,from that that's all I know.

verity

Motive contrary to popular belief is not necessary, however They went into detail how he was rejected and also how he said it was too late.

verity

The important thing there is they were pointing out it was a vengeful attack, deliberate and premeditated.

Statest16

verity said:

Motive contrary to popular belief is not necessary, however They went into detail how he was rejected and also how he said it was too late.

Yes ,guilt can be proven without motive for sure and in this motive was even more irrelevant because he already pled guilty,the only issue is should a death sentence be imposed.So mitigation is a ball in the defenses court.

This I understand although it's no excuse for neither my sister or I killed anyone.
I lost a mother young and my younger sister even younger.

I fully believe loss of two mothers not peer or romantic(and or sexual) rejection pushed him over the edge.
My own sister hates me and we have not spoken in 20 years all just because we grieved differently.
Losing a mother young is hard and it's no excuse for murder I believe the parental loss (actually two mothers) pushed him over the edge not peer rejection.
I would never kill anyone but I remember august 23rd 1997 like yesterday,this stuff effects people for real.
(now you have me crying)

Statest16

verity said:

The important thing there is they were pointing out it was a vengeful attack, deliberate and premeditated.

Yes there is no question this was premeditated ,he made threats well beforehand and that shows a cooling off period with negates insanity or heat of the moment disturbance.Yes this was planned.

verity

Statest16 said:

I fully believe loss of two mothers not peer or romantic(and or sexual) rejection pushed him over the edge.
My own sister hates me and we have not spoken in 20 years all just because we grieved differently.
Losing a mother young is hard and it's no excuse for murder I believe the parental loss (actually two mothers) pushed him over the edge not peer rejection.
I would never kill anyone but I remember august 23rd 1997 like yesterday,this stuff effects people for real.
(now you have me crying)

Sure I agree. Didn't mean to make you cry. Though sometimes it is healthy to cry and talk about this stuff. I wish people were more understanding about grief, how it affects people differently. Strangely while were can be fixed in our thinking often NTs can be very fixed on social ideas.

They way I look at it, is even if it affected him and mostly likely it was in part developmental, it made him who he is, that is his personality so if you look at his inability to change, and his risk of referenced that is self evident.

I may well have influenced your personality too, but in a different way, as you said you would never do that.

I think you personality is good, you give people straight answer to question without much judgement. You know what you are itnerensted in, and don't try to be anything you are not.

Statest16

verity said:

Statest16 said:

I fully believe loss of two mothers not peer or romantic(and or sexual) rejection pushed him over the edge.
My own sister hates me and we have not spoken in 20 years all just because we grieved differently.
Losing a mother young is hard and it's no excuse for murder I believe the parental loss (actually two mothers) pushed him over the edge not peer rejection.
I would never kill anyone but I remember august 23rd 1997 like yesterday,this stuff effects people for real.
(now you have me crying)

Sure I agree. Didn't mean to make you cry. Though sometimes it is healthy to cry and talk about this stuff. I wish people were more understanding about grief, how it affects people differently. Strangely while were can be fixed in our thinking often NTs can be very fixed on social ideas.

They way I look at it, is even if it affected him and mostly likely it was in part developmental, it made him who he is, that is his personality so if you look at his inability to change, and his risk of referenced that is self evident.

I may well have influenced your personality too, but in a different way, as you said you would never do that.

I think you personality is good, you give people straight answer to question without much judgement. You know what you are itnerensted in, and don't try to be anything you are not.

It's ok you did not upset me I chose take up a difficult subject.
I suppose in the end we won't know  why people do such things,the loss of a parent and peer rejection are both painful but don't begin to explain the inclination to such horror.

I was simply giving my viewpoint on the pain of parental loss and why that is a viable motive.But there surely have been such crimes based on peer rejection as well.

Moonika

I think you're on the right forum in terms of analyzing, autistic people like and do well with a analyzing and knowledge keeping.

You had a highly delinquent past, part of it seems to stem from emotional outbursts, some of it momentary with failure to assess the consequences, yet sometimes you regret the consequence and overassess the physical strength of other humans. 

I wouldn't be surprised if you have been affected by growing up in a family with both parents being problem parents and anger focused, which probably is contagious and could be a medium to breed narcissism. 

Your friends don't seem to know the distinction between covert and overt narcissism, and instinctively defend you or excuse your traits, some narcissists have no issue with their traits showing, supposedly in your case you get pleasure out of your delinquency, an interest in showing bad boy vibes, it can have appeal to the person, but not the other people to such extents as your dangerous behavior that could hospitalize your close ones because there's no safety and love in that. You seem to be regretting particularly the deeds that you didn't plan to happen, while ones that you did you wouldn't regret.

Like you said, you seem to extend your emotional feelings about who might be enemies inwardly, into your close circles, which you discover to be able to care a little more about and have regrets. You treat girlfriends as less than friends, you view them as objects and go overboard to manipulate for your dates to do extreme things. But your lack of acknowledgement that nobody will stay with you due to it is missing, no one not even other narcs appreciate being dragged into relationships and will escape because it's very obvious you're up to no good and you seem to have very low self control over your ideas and feelings which is a trait of narcissists. Because you involve yourself in toxic and extreme games and you can't help enjoying it you are a malignant narcissist. You deem genuinity your enemy as soon as you can identify a big gain and you are destructive to yourself and others in pursuit of it, like an animal that gets too triggered by squirrels on a leash that it will stop listening to reason and paying attention to directions from their owner. It's gone, and the only thing that can snap the brain out of it in animals is physical sensors, leash tap, when the mind is gone. 

 Some narcissists are intelligent and have a broad knowledge that helps them cheat the system. They can plan to great detail like you seem to do sometimes when you're on the track of revenge, machiavellian tact.

I can't find any traits from what you said that would be related to autism in your case, except knowledge but it's not unique to the spectrum and without the other traits it seems unlikely to be true. You're a social person also, sounds like and popular with the girls which you wouldn't see from an autistic guy in a thousand years so naturally. 

Your desire to show off is mistaken for the interest in honesty and honor, which you lack as you're very easily drawn to cheats and shortcuts in your goals to getting ahead by any means. 

What fuels your desire to mess with animals is by the sounds of it an enjoyment with the reactions of the animals not child innocent curiosity and you seem to do it sustainedly, obsessively, not just as an experiment or experience. Obsessive actions are enjoyable in nature.

You are literal because you like the attention it gives you, not because you have trouble not being or you miss hints and nuances. Again, that is narcissism not autism.

Need of constant stimulation is popular in narcissists, they get bored fast, easily. You must realize this forum is not very attractive in terms of traffic to support your neverending attention needs, I guess it could be a new thing for you, though. 

Your friends need to stop suggesting mental illnesses on you, the poor things probably don't realize they're guiding you to websites with disorders that don't have much to do with you, not websites for fun or for narcissist needs and growth. They probably talked or read about it but they don't understand what it is or how to distinguish, or maybe they're just trying to protect you or themselves from the truth. People get emotional sometimes. 

Sheldon

Moonika said:

I think you're on the right forum in terms of analyzing, autistic people like and do well with a analyzing and knowledge keeping.

Well, the "traditional" autistics.

But I have seen many who are governed by their emotional rather than rational needs.