Etymology

Prometheus81Prometheus81 Citizen, Member
edited December 2020 in Literature, Art and Music

This is a continuation of a discussion from the "Christmas blues" thread.

@Prometheus81 said:

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Lenin was one of the most emin> @Teach51 said:

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No. This almost certainly comes from the Greek γενος (genos) (I can't remember the nominative, but I think that's right), meaning "genus, kind, species, type, category, etc." It's cognate with the much abused term "gender".

I'm sure Karamazov will look this up for me, but I think I'm right.

Yes, you’re right: those two words are from the Greek genea.

Gender is from Latin genus, as are genre & generic and also generous.

Both the Latin and the Greek from PIE #gene: also the root of Welsh geni and Sanskrit janati.
Old English equivalent would be gecynd : in turn related to modern German kinder .

So to say someone is “gentle and kind” is, etymologically speaking a tautology

(I’ve used a hashtag instead of a star on the PIE word to avoid messing up italic formatting: Proto-linguistics always uses stars to denote reconstructed words)


Prometheus says:

It's true that "gender" is from the Latin "genus", but this itself is just a Latinization of the Greek γενος (genos); masculine nouns in -ος borrowed by Latin from Greek, in general, just turn the omicron into a u in line with the rule for masculine second declension nouns in Latin itself (servus, amicus, etc.) A good example is the name of the first Athenian tyrant, Peisitratos/ Πεισιστρατος), to whom the Romans referred as "Pisistratus", since the diphthong "ei" doesn't really exist in Latin.

"""""""""""""So to say someone is “gentle and kind” is, etymologically speaking a tautology """"""""

This is clear from French, but it's difficult to see where "kind" took on the meaning of "nice, personable", as in the French "gentil". Despite "Kinder", the adjective "kind" does not exist in German, as far as I know.

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Comments

  • Prometheus81Prometheus81 Citizen, Member
    edited December 2020

    Although interestingly (I just checked), γενος is actually an irregular neuter noun ("genus", as you probably know, is a neuter 3rd declension Latin noun - its genitive is "generis"). But the Greek nominative looks like a regular masculine noun in -ος, so the form changes in the same way.

  • @Prometheus81 said:
    Although interestingly (I just checked), γενος is actually an irregular neuter noun ("genus", as you probably know, is a neuter 3rd declension Latin noun - its genitive is "generis"). But their nominatives both look like masculine 1st dec nouns, so the form changes in the same way.

    Actually I didn’t know that, State Schooled here.
    Headmaster from ages 12 -14 had been to a Public School (don’t know which) he did a fortnightly classics class with an optional monthly half-hour extra during lunch to pass on a basic overview of his knowledge.

    He gave us a mystery language text to decypher once: then next lesson revealed it was a reproduction of Linear A! 😂

    So are you saying the classical root of the word gender is grammatically transgender?
    (I find this a most amusing proposition)

  • Prometheus81Prometheus81 Citizen, Member
    edited December 2020

    @Karamazov said:

    @Prometheus81 said:
    Although interestingly (I just checked), γενος is actually an irregular neuter noun ("genus", as you probably know, is a neuter 3rd declension Latin noun - its genitive is "generis"). But their nominatives both look like masculine 1st dec nouns, so the form changes in the same way.

    Actually I didn’t know that, State Schooled here.
    Headmaster from ages 12 -14 had been to a Public School (don’t know which) he did a fortnightly classics class with an optional monthly half-hour extra during lunch to pass on a basic overview of his knowledge.

    He gave us a mystery language text to decypher once: then next lesson revealed it was a reproduction of Linear A! 😂

    So are you saying the classical root of the word gender is grammatically transgender?
    (I find this a most amusing proposition)

    It's no more "transgender" than any inanimate object in English is (which almost invariably take the neuter gender), or a child is in German (das Kind, in German, amusingly takes the neuter gender, as does "Mädchen" (little girl) and any other word referring to a young child).

    The problem is in the all-too-often confusion of gender with sex. The former is a term borrowed from sociology and ultimately linguistics, and has no bearing on the latter, which is taken from biology. The substitution of "gender" for "sex" was originally politically motivated, although the misnomer "gender" has entered into such general use that very few are any longer consciously using it in that way.

  • Statest16Statest16 Citizen, Mentor

    I like etymology
    Today is Christmas which come from Greek "christos' anointed.Because Paul thought Isus(Jesus) was the anointed one.From the Hebrew "Mashiach" (aka Messiah) meaning anointed.This goes back to ancient Israel were Kohanim or Priests and Melek or Kings had oil anointed on them in ritual practice.The great coming leader of Old Testament prophecy was also called Mashiach because he would also be anointed with oil.

    So when the apostle Paul declared Isus to be the great leader of ancient prophecy he in Greek called him christos(anointed)or on other words Mashiach/Messiah.

    Isus who history believes was Aramaic speaking called himself Yeshua an Aramaic slang of Hebrew Yehoshua which is what English translates as Joshua.

    So Christmas means "The day of the anointed" and to a Christian the anointed is Joshua.

    There is also evidence that Yeshua may have been the wrong pronounciation,in ancient Aramaic the Ayin at the end was silent and it was pronounced simply " Yeshu"

    So happy Anointed day everyone

  • Prometheus81Prometheus81 Citizen, Member
    edited December 2020

    You're right, except that the plural of Melek is, as you probably knew, Melekim. This is cognate with, among other things, the name of the Canaanite god Moloch, to whom children were sacrificed.

    Another interesting cognate occurs in Arabic, which people easily forget is itself a Semitic language, in the word Malik, also meaning king and a common surname among Muslims.

  • Statest16Statest16 Citizen, Mentor

    @Prometheus81 said:
    You're right, except that the plural of Melek is, as you probably knew, Melekim. This is cognate with, among other things, the name of the Canaanite god Moloch, to whom children were sacrificed.

    Another interesting cognate occurs in Arabic, which people easily forget is itself a Semitic language, in the word Malik, also meaning king and a common surname among Muslims.

    Yes I know the plural king Melekim,when I used the word Kohanim it wasn't meant as literal plural but as high priest singular.Often when you give a plural suffix to a Hebrew word it doesn't always pluralize it but magnify it.So Elohim for instance does not mean two or many gods but a more powerful god.So niether Melek or Kohanim was meant plural.

    Yes Malyk also means king in Arabic,many Hebrew and Arabic words are similar and with other ancient Mesopotamian words.Every Alpha-Bet used in the middle eastern or western world came from the Phoenician.,
    That why most Alpha Bets of the world have a first letter A,which was the Phoenician first letter which had the A shape to simbolize an Ox yoke and Ox came first because the Ox was strong hence the leader.But I suspect you already know this.

    Your very smart PT you really know your stuff.

  • Hebrew and Arabic are quite similar languages. I would have to look up their “mutual intelligibility.”

  • Teach51Teach51 Citizen
    edited December 2020

    @Statest16 said:
    I like etymology
    Today is Christmas which come from Greek "christos' anointed.Because Paul thought Isus(Jesus) was the anointed one.From the Hebrew "Mashiach" (aka Messiah) meaning anointed.This goes back to ancient Israel were Kohanim or Priests and Melek or Kings had oil anointed on them in ritual practice.The great coming leader of Old Testament prophecy was also called Mashiach because he would also be anointed with oil.

    So when the apostle Paul declared Isus to be the great leader of ancient prophecy he in Greek called him christos(anointed)or on other words Mashiach/Messiah.

    Isus who history believes was Aramaic speaking called himself Yeshua an Aramaic slang of Hebrew Yehoshua which is what English translates as Joshua.

    So Christmas means "The day of the anointed" and to a Christian the anointed is Joshua.

    There is also evidence that Yeshua may have been the wrong pronounciation,in ancient Aramaic the Ayin at the end was silent and it was pronounced simply " Yeshu"

    So happy Anointed day everyone

    ישוע yeshua in Hebrew means salvation.
    Melech (מלך) means king. Limloch , the verb (למלוך ) is to rule. Kingdom mamlecha (ממלכה).
    Don't know anything about etymology but I know Hebrew😇

  • Statest16Statest16 Citizen, Mentor
    edited December 2020

    @Teach51 said:

    @Statest16 said:
    I like etymology
    Today is Christmas which come from Greek "christos' anointed.Because Paul thought Isus(Jesus) was the anointed one.From the Hebrew "Mashiach" (aka Messiah) meaning anointed.This goes back to ancient Israel were Kohanim or Priests and Melek or Kings had oil anointed on them in ritual practice.The great coming leader of Old Testament prophecy was also called Mashiach because he would also be anointed with oil.

    So when the apostle Paul declared Isus to be the great leader of ancient prophecy he in Greek called him christos(anointed)or on other words Mashiach/Messiah.

    Isus who history believes was Aramaic speaking called himself Yeshua an Aramaic slang of Hebrew Yehoshua which is what English translates as Joshua.

    So Christmas means "The day of the anointed" and to a Christian the anointed is Joshua.

    There is also evidence that Yeshua may have been the wrong pronounciation,in ancient Aramaic the Ayin at the end was silent and it was pronounced simply " Yeshu"

    So happy Anointed day everyone

    ישוע yeshua in Hebrew means salvation.

    I am clumsy with computers and would no clue how to get the Alef-Bet from an English laptop by my Ebri is so bad it would be embarrassing anyway.Language and grammar are not my good ponts,I''m more idiot savant than aspergian and dictionary definintion than abstract grammar.

    Thank you for sharing real Ebri on this post I've been studing since 1998 but I suck at it,Ani Ebri lo tov LOL.

    Yeshua or Yeshu were Aramaic slang for Yehoshua which meant The Lord will save or deliver, very close to Isaiah or Yeshayahu which means The Lord is salvation.You humble me with your good Ebri Teach,I'll never have the understanding of grammar or semantics even in English so forget Hebrew but I love your language

  • I love Hebrew ( עברית Ivrit) also Statest and I do of course speak it every day😁

  • Statest16Statest16 Citizen, Mentor
    edited December 2020

    @Teach51 said:
    I love Hebrew ( עברית Ivrit) also Statest and I do of course speak it every day😁

    I know you speak it every day and speak it well and you got me again,yes as a language Evrit is the Hebrew language.I was mistaken I believe Ebri with the dagesh mark in the letter Bet is the root of Evrit.And the Ebri means the ones who crossed because Avraham and family was believed to have crossed either the Tigris or Euphrates river.So they called where they lived "Eber" so that makes the root of Evrit and the change in tense changes Bet to Vet.I think I got most of that right.But I likely can't keep up with you on this stuff.

  • Teach51Teach51 Citizen
    edited December 2020

    @Statest16 said:

    @Teach51 said:
    I love Hebrew ( עברית Ivrit) also Statest and I do of course speak it every day😁

    I know you speak it every day and speak it well and you got me again,yes as a language Evrit is the Hebrew language.I was mistaken I believe Ebri with the dagesh mark in the letter Bet is the root of Evrit.And the Ebri means the ones who crossed because Avraham and family was believed to have crossed either the Tigris or Euphrates river.So they called where they lived "Eber" so that makes the root of Evrit and the change in tense changes Bet to Vet.I think I got most of that right.But I likely can't keep up with you on this stuff.

    That is correct and you are doing very well😉
    indeed the verb for to pass, to cross is " לעבור" which is the same root "עבר " avar, also meaning past. This can also be interpreted as transcending from the corporeal world into the Upper world. Maavar, (מעבר) is a passage, passage way, conduit, which is the way kabbalists interpret it. Abraham discovered this pathway according to the wisdom of kabbalah, the method to reveal the forces of nature, or Elokim , the Upper Force. The word olam, elem, (עולם or עלם) world, means concealment in Hebrew. The forces of nature , the Creator, are concealed to our senses, according to kabbalists, we ascend 125 steps (stages) in order to pass through them and reach correction. The corporeal world we perceive with our 5 senses conceals the real world that we are not yet able to perceive. According to kabbalist belief, what we perceive is nothing but a personalized hologram that conceals the world of Ein Sof (infinity) where we all actually already are and the whole thing is like a bloody difficult to beat computer game with 125 levels. This requires many corporeal lifetimes (lives) as many computer games do in order to reach the final stage.☺ The Hebrew language has many codes and functions but this is an etymology thread, so, that's enough regarding Ivrit and it's meaning.

  • Statest16Statest16 Citizen, Mentor

    @Teach51 said:

    @Statest16 said:

    @Teach51 said:
    I love Hebrew ( עברית Ivrit) also Statest and I do of course speak it every day😁

    I know you speak it every day and speak it well and you got me again,yes as a language Evrit is the Hebrew language.I was mistaken I believe Ebri with the dagesh mark in the letter Bet is the root of Evrit.And the Ebri means the ones who crossed because Avraham and family was believed to have crossed either the Tigris or Euphrates river.So they called where they lived "Eber" so that makes the root of Evrit and the change in tense changes Bet to Vet.I think I got most of that right.But I likely can't keep up with you on this stuff.

    That is correct and you are doing very well😉
    indeed the verb for to pass, to cross is " לעבור" which is the same root "עבר " avar, also meaning past. This can also be interpreted as transcending from the corporeal world into the Upper world. Maavar, (מעבר) is a passage, passage way, conduit, which is the way kabbalists interpret it. Abraham discovered this pathway according to the wisdom of kabbalah, the method to reveal the forces of nature, or Elokim , the Upper Force. The word olam, elem, (עולם or עלם) world, means concealment in Hebrew. The forces of nature , the Creator, are concealed to our senses, according to kabbalists, we ascend 125 steps (stages) in order to pass through them and reach correction. The corporeal world we perceive with our 5 senses conceals the real world that we are not yet able to perceive. According to kabbalist belief, what we perceive is nothing but a personalized hologram that conceals the world of Ein Sof (infinity) where we all actually already are and the whole thing is like a bloody difficult to beat computer game with 125 levels. This requires many corporeal lifetimes (lives) as many computer games do in order to reach the final stage.☺ The Hebrew language has many codes and functions but this is an etymology thread, so, that's enough regarding Ivrit and it's meaning.

    Ok understood,I guess I had some of the nikud wrong,thank you Teach and enough about Ivrit,if only I could get the Alef-Bet on my laptop and we wouldn't have to mistranslate Hebrew into English.

  • I will PM you Statest about that.

  • At first I thought the topic was about bugs because I got the word etymology confused with entomology. Then it turned out to be an interesting conversation about Hebrew, theology and history.

  • Prometheus81Prometheus81 Citizen, Member
    edited December 2020

    The plural of majesty "elohim, etc.", is common to all Semitic languages: in the Koran, as I recall, God also refers to himself using the pronoun "we", although I only know this from briefly reading a translation. It also makes its way into Indo-European languages, and in the past, many European monarchs were referred to in the same way, including the King of England.

  • Statest16Statest16 Citizen, Mentor

    @Prometheus81 said:
    The plural of majesty "elohim, etc.", is common to all Semitic languages: in the Koran, as I recall, God also refers to himself using the pronoun "we", although I only know this from briefly reading a translation. It also makes its way into Indo-European languages, and in the past, many European monarchs were referred to in the same way, including the King of England.

    I think from what I know is that "Ilah" is Arabic for god derived from Il or El old Mesopotamian words for god.
    So when Ilah is changed to Allah,Allah means "The God" So in other words using the word Allah is a statement that there is only one god.

  • Prometheus81Prometheus81 Citizen, Member
    edited December 2020

    Yes, the Hebrew "El", and Arabic "Allah" are cognate. There is also an ancient, pre-Hebrew Canaanite pagan god called "El", who features in a number of near-eastern religions, usually as a war-god. He is the predecessor of the YHVH of the first part of the Old Testament (Torah):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(deity)

    It would be interesting to hear something about the etymology of the Tetragrammaton (YHVH or Yod He Vav He), a name considered too sacred to be pronounced, and usually rendered "ha-shem" (the name).

  • Statest16Statest16 Citizen, Mentor

    @Prometheus81 said:
    Yes, the Hebrew "El", and Arabic "Allah" are cognate. There is also an ancient, pre-Hebrew Canaanite pagan god called "El", who features in a number of near-eastern religions, usually as a war-god. He is the predecessor of the YHVH of the first part of the Old Testament (Torah):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_(deity)

    It would be interesting to hear something about the etymology of the Tetragrammaton (YHVH or Yod He Vav He), a name considered too sacred to be pronounced, and usually rendered "ha-shem" (the name).

    Your right about the Il/El Allah/Elohim Hebrew Arabic equation,there related and rooted in Il or El which were ancient pagan middle eastern gods.Then Elohim and Allah was a way of saying are god is more powerful,you have El Shadai which also means a god thats more powerful.

    Where the Torah is different than the Koran is what you mentioned,the Koran has Allah which says nothing more than "There is one God" but says nothing to describe him.

    Yod-He-Vav-HE YHVH The holy name and your right that Jews say Hashem in everyday conversation and then Adonai in high prayers in Shul.Because 1.the word shouldn't be pronounced and 2. the true pronounciation is lost.
    Yehovah,Yahweh and Yahuah are some common theories but not proven and most Hebrew experts put no stake in these pronouciations.
    I believe the name means "The one who delights in giving delight" or creator but a creator who delights in creation and hates to see his creations suffer because he wants them to feel delight.

  • Prometheus81Prometheus81 Citizen, Member
    edited December 2020

    I wonder if there's an etymological link between "Adonai - my Lord", and Adonis, the Greek figure who was himself lifted from Near Eastern mythology. It's noteworthy that El was originally a bull god, and Adonis was famously gored to death by a bull.

  • KaramazovKaramazov Citizen
    edited December 2020

    The first generation of critical biblical scholars in the C19th definitely did float that idea: although I don’t know if subsequent research has borne it out.

    As with early systematic archeology of the Middle East from around the same time period the field started off with a lot of presuppositions and assumptions which have fallen to later generations to interrogate and either reformulate or reject.

    Can’t remember where the consensus has fallen to date on that one off the top of my head: and I’m on the way out the door to mother in laws at present.

    Happy post Christmas 🙂

  • Statest16Statest16 Citizen, Mentor
    edited December 2020

    @Prometheus81 said:
    I wonder if there's an etymological link between "Adonai - my Lord", and Adonis, the Greek figure who was himself lifted from Near Eastern mythology. It's noteworthy that El was originally a bull god, and Adonis was famously gored to death by a bull.

    I did the etymology on Adonis and PT81 your smart and indeed is rooted in the ancient Mesopotamian word for lord or master.And your right about Adonai it's the possessive of Adon meaning lord or master.

  • Prometheus81Prometheus81 Citizen, Member
    edited December 2020

    @Karamazov said:
    The first generation of critical biblical scholars in the C19th definitely did float that idea: although I don’t know if subsequent research has borne it out.

    As with early systematic archeology of the Middle East from around the same time period the field started off with a lot of presuppositions and assumptions which have fallen to later generations to interrogate and either reformulate or reject.

    Can’t remember where the consensus has fallen to date on that one off the top of my head: and I’m on the way out the door to mother in laws at present.

    Happy post Christmas 🙂

    I never got on with critical Biblical theory. By the time I learned what it was, I'd already realised for myself how absurd the Bible is when taken as a work of history.

    @Statest16 said:

    @Prometheus81 said:
    I wonder if there's an etymological link between "Adonai - my Lord", and Adonis, the Greek figure who was himself lifted from Near Eastern mythology. It's noteworthy that El was originally a bull god, and Adonis was famously gored to death by a bull.

    I did the etymology on Adonis and PT81 your smart and indeed is rooted in the ancient Mesopotamian word for lord or master.And your right about Adonai it's the possessive of Adon meaning lord or master.

    Are there no possessive adjectives in Hebrew? There are no Indo-European languages, as far as I'm aware, where posession is indicated by inflection. The closest morphological equivalent is the prepositional particles in Latin: "cum me" (with me) becomes "mecum"; "cum te" (with you) becomes (tecum). This becomes conmigo and contigo in Spanish, which also adds "consigo" (with himself/herself/itself/themselves) in Spanish.

  • Statest16Statest16 Citizen, Mentor

    @Prometheus81 said:

    @Karamazov said:
    The first generation of critical biblical scholars in the C19th definitely did float that idea: although I don’t know if subsequent research has borne it out.

    As with early systematic archeology of the Middle East from around the same time period the field started off with a lot of presuppositions and assumptions which have fallen to later generations to interrogate and either reformulate or reject.

    Can’t remember where the consensus has fallen to date on that one off the top of my head: and I’m on the way out the door to mother in laws at present.

    Happy post Christmas 🙂

    I never got on with critical Biblical theory. By the time I learned what it was, I'd already realised for myself how absurd the Bible is when taken as a work of history.

    @Statest16 said:

    @Prometheus81 said:
    I wonder if there's an etymological link between "Adonai - my Lord", and Adonis, the Greek figure who was himself lifted from Near Eastern mythology. It's noteworthy that El was originally a bull god, and Adonis was famously gored to death by a bull.

    I did the etymology on Adonis and PT81 your smart and indeed is rooted in the ancient Mesopotamian word for lord or master.And your right about Adonai it's the possessive of Adon meaning lord or master.

    Are there no possessive adjectives in Hebrew? There are no Indo-European languages, as far as I'm aware, where posession is indicated by inflection. The closest morphological equivalent is the prepositional particles in Latin: "cum me" (with me) becomes "mecum"; "cum te" (with you) becomes (tecum). This becomes conmigo and contigo in Spanish, which also adds "consigo" (with himself/herself/itself/themselves) in Spanish.

    I have no conception of grammar or semantics I only know the dictionary definitions of words,I'm a true idiot savant with limited abstract thinking.

    As an issue fact "Adonai" means"my Lord" and "Adon" means lord or master.I would guess that Adonai is in a possessive context then.As to what languages do or don't have have possessive adjectives I would have no clue.

  • Teach51Teach51 Citizen
    edited December 2020

    The Torah is actually not a "history book" at all but a coded account of the how the forces of the universe work and the purpose of creation, the English translation is very far from the original Hebrew and the essence is obviously lost. Even most religious Jews interpret it literally, unfortunately, in my opinion.Each Hebrew letter has a numerical value and each word in the Torah is like an equation or code that Kabbalists can interpret, much like a book of quantum physics, nothing mystical, more like an advanced science book written in an allegoric form that is representative of the times. A handbook to the purpose of creation and how the forces of nature work, nature being Elokim, Yod Kay Vov Kay, blessed be His name. I am enjoying this thread though I can no longer participate as I am deeply invested as a practising kabbalist for many years and I don't want to cramp anyone's style. 😀 I shall continue to read this thread though because I am learning so much here from a different perspective than my own and it's fascinating.👍

  • Prometheus81Prometheus81 Citizen, Member
    edited December 2020

    @Teach51 said:
    The Torah is actually not a "history book" at all but a coded account of the how the forces of the universe work and the purpose of creation, the English translation is very far from the original Hebrew and the essence is obviously lost. Even most religious Jews interpret it literally, unfortunately, in my opinion.Each Hebrew letter has a numerical value and each word in the Torah is like an equation or code that Kabbalists can interpret, much like a book of quantum physics, nothing mystical, more like an advanced science book written in an allegory that is representative of the times. A handbook to the purpose of creation and how the forces of nature work, nature being Elokim, Yod Kay Vov Kay, blessed be His name. I am enjoying this thread though I can no longer parcipate as I am deeply invested as a practising kabbalist for many years and I don't want to cramp anyone's style. 😀 I shall continue to read this thread though because I am learning so much here from a different perspective than my own and it's fascinating.👍

    I understand all of that, and it's precisely the point I was making: it's crude literalists who make the Bible seem ridiculous, only the biblical historicists (Albert Schweitzer, etc.), are acting on the same presuppositions as the literalists, which is why they never yielded fruit.

    As someone of Jewish descent myself, I found Kabbalah deeply interesting for many years, though I've since dismissed it as largely superstition and pareidolia (sorry). I still agree that the Torah (the rest of the Tanakh too) can yield immensely satisfying answers to the questions of psychology, ethics, politics and so on, but this comes from the poetry rather than the numerological meanings of the text.

    Despite having been raised broadly Christian, I've always agreed with Nietzsche that the New Testament is a poncy (being British, I have to use that word), weedy man's book, and quite inadequate before the grandeur, glamour and Dionysian qualities of the OT.

  • Statest16Statest16 Citizen, Mentor

    @Teach51 said:
    The Torah is actually not a "history book" at all but a coded account of the how the forces of the universe work and the purpose of creation, the English translation is very far from the original Hebrew and the essence is obviously lost. Even most religious Jews interpret it literally, unfortunately, in my opinion.Each Hebrew letter has a numerical value and each word in the Torah is like an equation or code that Kabbalists can interpret, much like a book of quantum physics, nothing mystical, more like an advanced science book written in an allegoric form that is representative of the times. A handbook to the purpose of creation and how the forces of nature work, nature being Elokim, Yod Kay Vov Kay, blessed be His name. I am enjoying this thread though I can no longer parcipate as I am deeply invested as a practising kabbalist for many years and I don't want to cramp anyone's style. 😀 I shall continue to read this thread though because I am learning so much here from a different perspective than my own and it's fascinating.👍

    Very good insight and you made good points.People think Torah means law but it actually means "teachings" law would be Halakah.
    I don't know much about Kabalah but it was from a Kabalist that I heard that the Holy four letters means "The one who delights in giving delight"

  • Prometheus81Prometheus81 Citizen, Member

    @Statest16 said:

    @Prometheus81 said:

    @Karamazov said:
    The first generation of critical biblical scholars in the C19th definitely did float that idea: although I don’t know if subsequent research has borne it out.

    As with early systematic archeology of the Middle East from around the same time period the field started off with a lot of presuppositions and assumptions which have fallen to later generations to interrogate and either reformulate or reject.

    Can’t remember where the consensus has fallen to date on that one off the top of my head: and I’m on the way out the door to mother in laws at present.

    Happy post Christmas 🙂

    I never got on with critical Biblical theory. By the time I learned what it was, I'd already realised for myself how absurd the Bible is when taken as a work of history.

    @Statest16 said:

    @Prometheus81 said:
    I wonder if there's an etymological link between "Adonai - my Lord", and Adonis, the Greek figure who was himself lifted from Near Eastern mythology. It's noteworthy that El was originally a bull god, and Adonis was famously gored to death by a bull.

    I did the etymology on Adonis and PT81 your smart and indeed is rooted in the ancient Mesopotamian word for lord or master.And your right about Adonai it's the possessive of Adon meaning lord or master.

    Are there no possessive adjectives in Hebrew? There are no Indo-European languages, as far as I'm aware, where posession is indicated by inflection. The closest morphological equivalent is the prepositional particles in Latin: "cum me" (with me) becomes "mecum"; "cum te" (with you) becomes (tecum). This becomes conmigo and contigo in Spanish, which also adds "consigo" (with himself/herself/itself/themselves) in Spanish.

    I have no conception of grammar or semantics I only know the dictionary definitions of words,I'm a true idiot savant with limited abstract thinking.

    As an issue fact "Adonai" means"my Lord" and "Adon" means lord or master.I would guess that Adonai is in a possessive context then.As to what languages do or don't have have possessive adjectives I would have no clue.

    Possessive adjectives are words like "my," "your", "their", "thy", etc.

  • Statest16Statest16 Citizen, Mentor

    @Prometheus81 said:

    @Statest16 said:

    @Prometheus81 said:

    @Karamazov said:
    The first generation of critical biblical scholars in the C19th definitely did float that idea: although I don’t know if subsequent research has borne it out.

    As with early systematic archeology of the Middle East from around the same time period the field started off with a lot of presuppositions and assumptions which have fallen to later generations to interrogate and either reformulate or reject.

    Can’t remember where the consensus has fallen to date on that one off the top of my head: and I’m on the way out the door to mother in laws at present.

    Happy post Christmas 🙂

    I never got on with critical Biblical theory. By the time I learned what it was, I'd already realised for myself how absurd the Bible is when taken as a work of history.

    @Statest16 said:

    @Prometheus81 said:
    I wonder if there's an etymological link between "Adonai - my Lord", and Adonis, the Greek figure who was himself lifted from Near Eastern mythology. It's noteworthy that El was originally a bull god, and Adonis was famously gored to death by a bull.

    I did the etymology on Adonis and PT81 your smart and indeed is rooted in the ancient Mesopotamian word for lord or master.And your right about Adonai it's the possessive of Adon meaning lord or master.

    Are there no possessive adjectives in Hebrew? There are no Indo-European languages, as far as I'm aware, where posession is indicated by inflection. The closest morphological equivalent is the prepositional particles in Latin: "cum me" (with me) becomes "mecum"; "cum te" (with you) becomes (tecum). This becomes conmigo and contigo in Spanish, which also adds "consigo" (with himself/herself/itself/themselves) in Spanish.

    I have no conception of grammar or semantics I only know the dictionary definitions of words,I'm a true idiot savant with limited abstract thinking.

    As an issue fact "Adonai" means"my Lord" and "Adon" means lord or master.I would guess that Adonai is in a possessive context then.As to what languages do or don't have have possessive adjectives I would have no clue.

    Possessive adjectives are words like "my," "your", "their", "thy", etc.

    Ok,English then has those,I am good at etymology and seeing what are the roots of words I am not good at linguistics and am not sure what other languages have those.I think in Hebrew when tense or context changes the word fluctuates as opposed to adding a new word as is evident in Adonai.Or like Aba for father and Avraham for father of many.You see this more as opposed to putting words in between words as you would in English,in English we say "father of many" instead of altering the word father.

  • If you’ve studied Kabbalah for years, why wouldn’t your contributions be valuable, Teach?

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