Happy 250th birthday Beethoven

On this date the 17th of december 1770 Ludwig van Beethoven of Flemish decent was baptised (actual birthday unknown) in Bonn, The Holy Roman Empire now Germany.
His grandfather also Ludwig was a successful Kapellmeister from Mechelen,Flanders now in Belgium.His father Johann was a failed musician and alcoholic but encouraged Beethoven's musical pursuits.

Beethoven never married and had no children but did have temporary custody of his nephew Karl.
HAPPY 250 BEETHOVEN😃

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Comments

  • Prometheus81Prometheus81 Citizen, Member

    I was going to attend a concert to celebrate the event, but the mass hysteria around COVID has prevented it from going ahead. I was lucky enough to see Sir Simon Rattle conduct Beethoven's Seventh Symphony back in Jan, but that was a whole different world.

  • Statest16Statest16 Citizen, Mentor

    @Prometheus81 said:
    I was going to attend a concert to celebrate the event, but the mass hysteria around COVID has prevented it from going ahead. I was lucky enough to see Sir Simon Rattle conduct Beethoven's Seventh Symphony back in Jan, but that was a whole different world.

    Wow,you saw Simon Rattle,amazing😃

    I've seen;
    Boston symphony
    Met Opera in NY (Barber of Seville)
    Leif Ove Andsnes playing Rachmaninoff conducted by Michael Tilson Thomas
    Guarneri string quartet

  • Prometheus81Prometheus81 Citizen, Member

    I used to go to concerts almost every week, although never outside the UK.

  • Statest16Statest16 Citizen, Mentor

    @Prometheus81 said:
    I used to go to concerts almost every week, although never outside the UK.

    I am not a big concert go'er my last concert was Tanglewood summer 2010 where I saw Rachmaninoff conducted by Tilson Thomas.

    The only rock show I ever saw was Sonic Youth at University of Massachusetts student union 1992 a free concert Sonic Youth being local to the area.I never intended to go,I was at Umass hanging out and wondered into the show by accident

  • Prometheus81Prometheus81 Citizen, Member

    The closest thing to a non-classical concert I've attended was the Fairport Convention festival of around 2009, to which a relative dragged me.

  • Statest16Statest16 Citizen, Mentor

    @Prometheus81 said:
    The closest thing to a non-classical concert I've attended was the Fairport Convention festival of around 2009, to which a relative dragged me.

    I have seen the Anglo-African folk singer Roger Whitaker in concert when I was a kid and the country act Charlie Daniels back then too.

  • Just watched this short video talk on Beethoven, his deafness & tinnitus:

    Moving, and interesting hypothesis at the end.

  • Prometheus81Prometheus81 Citizen, Member
    edited December 2020

    @Karamazov said:
    Just watched this short video talk on Beethoven, his deafness & tinnitus:

    Moving, and interesting hypothesis at the end.

    I always avoid these sort of videos, since I refuse to accept that pop music has to justify classical music, rather than the other way around. Not disparaging your effort, though.

    I have to admit that although, like most people, I was aware of Beethoven's deafness, I really know very little about his life. There's something about him that has always put me off. I was listening to his Emperor Concerto a few weeks ago, and it hit me that it's his optimism (in the political sense) that I find most unappealing. Throughout all his music, though mostly for me in the Emperor Concerto and symphonies three, five and nine, his naive 19th century optimism is the theme that predominates. As someone who thinks the future is going to be a hellish place rather than one to look forward to, I cannot share that optimism, and it depresses me to hear it.

    My favourite composer, for the same reason, is Shostakovich, but I don't want to derail this thread by making it about him.

  • I don’t think justifying anything was the point of the video: just a music producer talking of his admiration for the man and his work, with particular reference to his encroaching disability.

    (For the record: I think the whole concept of justifying any tradition of music, or any other art, on anything other than its own terms is aesthetically bankrupt... all it amounts to is saying “this is not that: therefore it fails” without even stopping to query if this was even trying to be that in the first place.)

    I must confess I prefer Beethoven’s chamber works and solo piano pieces to his larger scope orchestral works... but I get that with most composers: musical intimacy seems to be what does it for me.

  • Statest16Statest16 Citizen, Mentor

    @Prometheus81 said:

    @Karamazov said:
    Just watched this short video talk on Beethoven, his deafness & tinnitus:

    Moving, and interesting hypothesis at the end.

    I always avoid these sort of videos, since I refuse to accept that pop music has to justify classical music, rather than the other way around. Not disparaging your effort, though.

    I have to admit that although, like most people, I was aware of Beethoven's deafness, I really know very little about his life. There's something about him that has always put me off. I was listening to his Emperor Concerto a few weeks ago, and it hit me that it's his optimism (in the political sense) that I find most unappealing. Throughout all his music, though mostly for me in the Emperor Concerto and symphonies three, five and nine, his naive 19th century optimism is the theme that predominates. As someone who thinks the future is going to be a hellish place rather than one to look forward to, I cannot share that optimism, and it depresses me to hear it.

    My favourite composer, for the same reason, is Shostakovich, but I don't want to derail this thread by making it about him.

    Take the thread where you it's my thread and I don't have problem with bringing other composers.

    I didn't watch the video I would say I don't like Rick Beato at all and hate his video's.Rock N' Roller's take theory so literally and by the books and it's so annoying.They are so rigid with there chord progression theory and every pop song has the same chord progression.

    In classical music composers do what they want and don't worry about theory.Rick Beato gets on my nerves in general.

  • Statest16Statest16 Citizen, Mentor

    @Karamazov said:

    I must confess I prefer Beethoven’s chamber works and solo piano pieces to his larger scope orchestral works... but I get that with most composers: musical intimacy seems to be what does it for me.

    I would feel the same way,I posted a Beethoven string quartet on Facebook today for the 250th birthday

  • Prometheus81Prometheus81 Citizen, Member
    edited December 2020

    I do not agree that there aren't objective standards in aesthetics, although I do agree that it's difficult to put a finger on what is the nature of objective value in that area. Schopenhauer came closest to the mark, for me, in recycling Plato's Idea (to him Wille zur Leben "will-to-life", or Kant's Ding an sich), and stating that the purpose of art is to embody the will-to-life as nearly as is possible, so that not being the slave of will, one finally sees things as they are. The terminology is just unnecessary pedantry, but it's obvious that he hit on something that's intuitively clear to us but difficult to articulate. Even braindead postmodernists don't actually believe values are all relative; they just want an excuse not to have to improve themselves.

    Personally, I have very little time for chamber or solo music beyond the Baroque era; it strikes me as having been a product of its time.

    I've never heard of Mr Beato; I assumed the guy in the video was an independent Youtuber. But again, I've always thought pandering to people who haven't got the will to challenge themselves to learn something new not only undermines the respectability of classical music, but is useless on its own terms; if you're too insecure to want to be seen taking an interest in classical music, no amount of sugar-coating will make it palatable to you. I'm sick of reading books by modern writers on the subject, who always feel the need to apologise for valuing high culture by assuring the reader they "like rock music as well". I have no shame in admitting that I despise almost all the rock music I have ever heard.

    I'm not sure what is meant by the stuff about music theory. In my experience, it's rock musicians who are woefully inadequate in that area. The majority of guitarists I know can't read a proper score at all, and rely on tablatures, which are the music theory equivalent of sitting in the corner of a classroom wearing a dunce-cap.

  • @Statest16 said:

    In classical music composers do what they want and don't worry about theory.Rick Beato gets on my nerves in general.

    I know what you mean: I’ve tried watching his videos on jazz theory and... wow, can that guy ramble around a point without ever getting to it.
    And yes, there is a lot of the prescriptive “this mode goes over this chord” type of stuff which to my mind makes the essence way harder to grasp than it needs to be on top of the rigidity issue.

    Gave that one a chance and it pleasantly surprised me: there’s no theory, some interesting little clips where he uses his sound-editing software to cut out the frequencies of things Beethoven said he couldn’t hear in his letters, and mixes in a tinnitus simulation to give you a rough approximation of how the man himself would’ve heard his pieces at different points in his life.

    Which quartet by the way?
    I don’t know them by name, but I’ll go find the one you chose in a bit (and enjoy it no doubt)

  • Statest16Statest16 Citizen, Mentor

    @Karamazov said:

    @Statest16 said:

    In classical music composers do what they want and don't worry about theory.Rick Beato gets on my nerves in general.

    I know what you mean: I’ve tried watching his videos on jazz theory and... wow, can that guy ramble around a point without ever getting to it.
    And yes, there is a lot of the prescriptive “this mode goes over this chord” type of stuff which to my mind makes the essence way harder to grasp than it needs to be on top of the rigidity issue.

    Gave that one a chance and it pleasantly surprised me: there’s no theory, some interesting little clips where he uses his sound-editing software to cut out the frequencies of things Beethoven said he couldn’t hear in his letters, and mixes in a tinnitus simulation to give you a rough approximation of how the man himself would’ve heard his pieces at different points in his life.

    Which quartet by the way?
    I don’t know them by name, but I’ll go find the one you chose in a bit (and enjoy it no doubt)

    A minor no.15 opus 132

  • Thank you 🙂
    I’ll find it right away in my big YouTube playlist of his quartets 🙂

  • Statest16Statest16 Citizen, Mentor

    @Prometheus81 said:
    I do not agree that there aren't objective standards in aesthetics, although I do agree that it's difficult to put a finger on what is the nature of objective value in that area. Schopenhauer came closest to the mark, for me, in recycling Plato's Idea (to him Wille zur Leben "will-to-life", or Kant's Ding an sich), and stating that the purpose of art is to embody the will-to-life as nearly as is possible, so that not being the slave of will, one finally sees things as they are. The terminology is just unnecessary pedantry, but it's obvious that he hit on something that's intuitively clear to us but difficult to articulate. Even braindead postmodernists don't actually believe values are all relative; they just want an excuse not to have to improve themselves.

    Personally, I have very little time for chamber or solo music beyond the Baroque era; it strikes me as having been a product of its time.

    I've never heard of Mr Beato; I assumed the guy in the video was an independent Youtuber. But again, I've always thought pandering to people who haven't got the will to challenge themselves to learn something new not only undermines the respectability of classical music, but is useless on its own terms; if you're too insecure to want to be seen taking an interest in classical music, no amount of sugar-coating will make it palatable to you. I'm sick of reading books by modern writers on the subject, who always feel the need to apologise for valuing high culture by assuring the reader they "like rock music as well". I have no shame in admitting that I despise almost all the rock music I have ever heard.

    I'm not sure what is meant by the stuff about music theory. In my experience, it's rock musicians who are woefully inadequate in that area. The majority of guitarists I know can't read a proper score at all, and rely on tablatures, which are the music theory equivalent of sitting in the corner of a classroom wearing a dunce-cap.

    Beato is a youtuber but also writes songs for singers who don't write there own songs and his songs have been recorded by major artists but nothing exceptional.

    What I mean is that the Jazz and rock players who do know theory are real strict about it and stick to traditional chord progressions.For instance in theory the 4th is always major but Bach would go to the minor 4th for instance in pop they'd never do that.They think the 7th has to be diminished always but what about going from A major to G# minor and making the A chord a french sixth to avoid the parallel 5th,you then get a parallel 4th but that's ok.

    All of the great changes in traditional tonality come out of classical,pop is the same 4 chords with the emphasis on rhythm and using a diminshed 7th is being really complex,but being imaginative would being that the 7th does not have to be diminished,will the parallel 4th kill you.

    Wagner was the first composer to use a chord with no tonal center,from the Prelude to Tristan-F,B,E flat,Aflat it's sort of G# minor with an augmented 6th but it does not really have a center

  • Statest16Statest16 Citizen, Mentor

    @Karamazov said:
    Thank you 🙂
    I’ll find it right away in my big YouTube playlist of his quartets 🙂

    Alban Berg quartet version is really good

  • KaramazovKaramazov Citizen
    edited December 2020

    @Statest16 said:

    @Karamazov said:
    Thank you 🙂
    I’ll find it right away in my big YouTube playlist of his quartets 🙂

    Alban Berg quartet version is really good

    That’s the one in my playlist! 😎

    Here it is for the enjoyment of all who pass this way:

    (Hopefully when played through the link you won’t have to suffer the horror of adverts between the movements shudders to the depths of his being )

    @Prometheus81 said:
    I do not agree that there aren't objective standards in aesthetics, although I do agree that it's difficult to put a finger on what is the nature of objective value in that area. Schopenhauer came closest to the mark, for me, in recycling Plato's Idea (to him Wille zur Leben "will-to-life", or Kant's Ding an sich), and stating that the purpose of art is to embody the will-to-life as nearly as is possible, so that not being the slave of will, one finally sees things as they are. The terminology is just unnecessary pedantry, but it's obvious that he hit on something that's intuitively clear to us but difficult to articulate.

    We’ll have to agree to differ there: to me that just comes across as boilerplate C19th romantic gibberish.
    Sorry, I’m pretty materialist by disposition: aside from the, thankfully long gone, obligatory brief flirtation with Nietzsche the whole “will” centred turn in philosophy just doesn’t interest me at all.

  • Statest16Statest16 Citizen, Mentor

    @Karamazov said:

    @Statest16 said:

    @Karamazov said:
    Thank you 🙂
    I’ll find it right away in my big YouTube playlist of his quartets 🙂

    Alban Berg quartet version is really good

    That’s the one in my playlist! 😎

    Here it is for the enjoyment of all who pass this way:

    (Hopefully when played through the link you won’t have to suffer the horror of adverts between the movements shudders to the depths of his being )

    @Prometheus81 said:
    I do not agree that there aren't objective standards in aesthetics, although I do agree that it's difficult to put a finger on what is the nature of objective value in that area. Schopenhauer came closest to the mark, for me, in recycling Plato's Idea (to him Wille zur Leben "will-to-life", or Kant's Ding an sich), and stating that the purpose of art is to embody the will-to-life as nearly as is possible, so that not being the slave of will, one finally sees things as they are. The terminology is just unnecessary pedantry, but it's obvious that he hit on something that's intuitively clear to us but difficult to articulate.

    We’ll have to agree to differ there: to me that just comes across as boilerplate C19th romantic gibberish.
    Sorry, I’m pretty materialist by disposition: aside from the, thankfully long gone, obligatory brief flirtation with Nietzsche the whole “will” centred turn in philosophy just doesn’t interest me at all.

    That looks like the ABQ for sure,they do late Beethoven so well,The Guarneri quartet was great for Beethoven too but can't find them on Youtube,but I have there CD's.

    Check out that video,I would but already watched it this morning actually

  • Prometheus81Prometheus81 Citizen, Member

    @Karamazov said:

    @Statest16 said:

    @Karamazov said:
    Thank you 🙂
    I’ll find it right away in my big YouTube playlist of his quartets 🙂

    Alban Berg quartet version is really good

    That’s the one in my playlist! 😎

    Here it is for the enjoyment of all who pass this way:

    (Hopefully when played through the link you won’t have to suffer the horror of adverts between the movements shudders to the depths of his being )

    @Prometheus81 said:
    I do not agree that there aren't objective standards in aesthetics, although I do agree that it's difficult to put a finger on what is the nature of objective value in that area. Schopenhauer came closest to the mark, for me, in recycling Plato's Idea (to him Wille zur Leben "will-to-life", or Kant's Ding an sich), and stating that the purpose of art is to embody the will-to-life as nearly as is possible, so that not being the slave of will, one finally sees things as they are. The terminology is just unnecessary pedantry, but it's obvious that he hit on something that's intuitively clear to us but difficult to articulate.

    We’ll have to agree to differ there: to me that just comes across as boilerplate C19th romantic gibberish.
    Sorry, I’m pretty materialist by disposition: aside from the, thankfully long gone, obligatory brief flirtation with Nietzsche the whole “will” centred turn in philosophy just doesn’t interest me at all.

    Like I said, the terminology is just woo, but translated into clear English (I'm not sure I could do this), it makes sense. I felt the same way as you about the German idealists, until I actually read them. Schopenhauer compared reading Kant to outgrowing childhood, and with reservations, I completely agree. The only German idealist who was a genuine charlatan was Hegel.

    I don't know why you'd even mention Nietzsche; to my mind, he was an essayist in the tradition of Le Rochefoucauld and Montaigne, but scarcely a philosopher. I'm not sure how obligatory a brief flirtation with his work might be, since even as a teenager, I never found him appealing.

  • ^ well: that’s ranging pretty far off topic by now! 😂

    Nietzsche- obligatory was meant as humour, given his near ubiquitous status as the pop-cultural quote source for “instant profundity: just add edgy dark lighting” 😜

    Re: German Idealism, I’ve tried several times... and lost patience with pretty much everything post-Kant very quickly.
    Hegel... I have some sympathy for his thought structuring method, but none for the implicit theology he smuggled into everything when he put it into practice: ultimately I can’t help but agree with Marx on Hegel (he was so busy being very clever he never noticed he got everything upside down).
    Currently planning to make some more room for Max Weber in my life, but have a couple of novels and history books that are higher on my priority list: it’s the post-Kant/post-Smith (Adam) turn to sociological thought that does it for me.

    But all this is very off topic. 😂

    Less C19th theory: more music! 😉

  • Statest16Statest16 Citizen, Mentor

    Another good video on YT to check is
    "The Tallis Scholars presented by the Boston early music festival"

  • Prometheus81Prometheus81 Citizen, Member

    @Karamazov said:
    ^ well: that’s ranging pretty far off topic by now! 😂

    Nietzsche- obligatory was meant as humour, given his near ubiquitous status as the pop-cultural quote source for “instant profundity: just add edgy dark lighting” 😜

    Re: German Idealism, I’ve tried several times... and lost patience with pretty much everything post-Kant very quickly.
    Hegel... I have some sympathy for his thought structuring method, but none for the implicit theology he smuggled into everything when he put it into practice: ultimately I can’t help but agree with Marx on Hegel (he was so busy being very clever he never noticed he got everything upside down).
    Currently planning to make some more room for Max Weber in my life, but have a couple of novels and history books that are higher on my priority list: it’s the post-Kant/post-Smith (Adam) turn to sociological thought that does it for me.

    But all this is very off topic. 😂

    Less C19th theory: more music! 😉

    I've always considered Nietzsche to be a philosopher who could only appeal to an adolescent, either in age or temperament. He's similar to Ayn Rand in that regard, though despite popular belief to the contrary, that's where their similarities end.

    I dislike Weber and anything else to do with sociology, barring a nod of the head at Durkheim.

    I've always found economics a vulgar subject, although I did read Wealth of Nations and The Theory of Moral Sentiments back in 2013/14.

    At the moment, I'm listening to this:

    https://my.mail.ru/mail/bychenokvalentina/video/4241/10085.html

    Any other Shostakovich fans here?

  • Statest16Statest16 Citizen, Mentor

    @Prometheus81 said:

    @Karamazov said:
    ^ well: that’s ranging pretty far off topic by now! 😂

    Nietzsche- obligatory was meant as humour, given his near ubiquitous status as the pop-cultural quote source for “instant profundity: just add edgy dark lighting” 😜

    Re: German Idealism, I’ve tried several times... and lost patience with pretty much everything post-Kant very quickly.
    Hegel... I have some sympathy for his thought structuring method, but none for the implicit theology he smuggled into everything when he put it into practice: ultimately I can’t help but agree with Marx on Hegel (he was so busy being very clever he never noticed he got everything upside down).
    Currently planning to make some more room for Max Weber in my life, but have a couple of novels and history books that are higher on my priority list: it’s the post-Kant/post-Smith (Adam) turn to sociological thought that does it for me.

    But all this is very off topic. 😂

    Less C19th theory: more music! 😉

    I've always considered Nietzsche to be a philosopher who could only appeal to an adolescent, either in age or temperament. He's similar to Ayn Rand in that regard, though despite popular belief to the contrary, that's where their similarities end.

    I dislike Weber and anything else to do with sociology, barring a nod of the head at Durkheim.

    I've always found economics a vulgar subject, although I did read Wealth of Nations and The Theory of Moral Sentiments back in 2013/14.

    At the moment, I'm listening to this:

    https://my.mail.ru/mail/bychenokvalentina/video/4241/10085.html

    Any other Shostakovich fans here?

    Shostakovich is good,he is only composer I know of who wrote more than 10 symphony's (15 exact)since the Haydn era.

  • I’m not averse to a bit of Shosty now and then, thinking of contemporary era Russians: have you heard Koshkin’s Preludes & Fugues for guitar ?
    Premier recordings & performances by his wife (Asya Selyutina) currently ongoing.

  • Statest16Statest16 Citizen, Mentor

    @Karamazov said:
    I’m not averse to a bit of Shosty now and then, thinking of contemporary era Russians: have you heard Koshkin’s Preludes & Fugues for guitar ?
    Premier recordings & performances by his wife (Asya Selyutina) currently ongoing.

    No,I''ll have to look that up

  • Statest16Statest16 Citizen, Mentor

    @Karamazov said:
    I’m not averse to a bit of Shosty now and then, thinking of contemporary era Russians: have you heard Koshkin’s Preludes & Fugues for guitar ?
    Premier recordings & performances by his wife (Asya Selyutina) currently ongoing.

    I didn't listen to all 24 but a couple,and it was the Asya Selyutina recording,very nice,you know music well KZ

  • Here’s the video they’ve made for the F#minor Prelude & Fugue:

    The first twelve have been released on CD and iTunes: not sure when they’re expecting to release the second twelve though (he does have a YT channel where he gives updates on what’s going down, but I can’t speak Russian so 🤷‍♂️)

  • KaramazovKaramazov Citizen
    edited December 2020

    @Statest16 said:

    @Karamazov said:
    I’m not averse to a bit of Shosty now and then, thinking of contemporary era Russians: have you heard Koshkin’s Preludes & Fugues for guitar ?
    Premier recordings & performances by his wife (Asya Selyutina) currently ongoing.

    I didn't listen to all 24 but a couple,and it was the Asya Selyutina recording,very nice,you know music well KZ

    Think it’s more the luck of stumbling upon things via YouTube to be honest!
    I just typed “waltz guitar” into the search one day to see what came up, and his Usher Waltz came up, I clicked through to listen and became a fan 🤓

    Came across this a few years back whilst having a session of listening to ground bass/chaconne/passacaglia pieces:

    It stood out and has had more than a few repeat listens since then.
    (Biber)

  • Statest16Statest16 Citizen, Mentor

    @Karamazov said:
    Here’s the video they’ve made for the F#minor Prelude & Fugue:

    The first twelve have been released on CD and iTunes: not sure when they’re expecting to release the second twelve though (he does have a YT channel where he gives updates on what’s going down, but I can’t speak Russian so 🤷‍♂️)

    F# minor,wow very difficult on guitar,I can't imagine he did all keys in his 24 preludes and fugues,outside of E,A,D both major or minor,other keys are really hard to play in.Also the guitar is not even tempered and doesn't sound good in flat keys at all.

    It would also be nice to see guitar compositions in Sonata form instead of a lot of short pieces all the time.

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